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Author Topic: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use  (Read 4649 times)

pugwash

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priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« on: February 24, 2011, 10:14:29 AM »

I am in the fine stages of my current build and have decided to use .31 brass wire for the guardrails and P.E. stanchions
I am having problems getting the paint to stick to the rails.
The rails are now fitted/soldered to the hull so no abrasive cleaning techniques can be used.
I am using humbrol silk finish black for the rails and white for the stanchions (both slightly thinned to get a thin a coating as possible)
What I need is a thin type of primer for the brass as I am trying to keep the rails as thin as possible as even at .31 mm they are overscale.
Any suggestions please

Geoff
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oldiron

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2011, 10:51:20 AM »

I am in the fine stages of my current build and have decided to use .31 brass wire for the guardrails and P.E. stanchions
I am having problems getting the paint to stick to the rails.
The rails are now fitted/soldered to the hull so no abrasive cleaning techniques can be used.
I am using humbrol silk finish black for the rails and white for the stanchions (both slightly thinned to get a thin a coating as possible)
What I need is a thin type of primer for the brass as I am trying to keep the rails as thin as possible as even at .31 mm they are overscale.
Any suggestions please

Geoff

  Geoff

  One of the key areas is making sure the railings are clean. Not just to the to the visual eye, but chemically clean. As you've soldered them together you have to get rid of the excess flux. I use either lacquer thinner and/or a silicone cleaner. Then prime them with a metal etch primer. From their you can use your choice of paint. Metal etch primer is thin. When properly applied it should give a green appearance to the work, but not as if you've given it a solid coat of green paint.
  Since you've soldered them together, can you remove them from the vessel for cleaning and painting, in one piece? This is the way I do mine. Its much easier to do  the finish work with them off the vessel. They retain their shape, can be finished and reapplied to the vessel painted.

John
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derekwarner

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2011, 11:16:31 AM »

Hi pugwash....without seeing the handrails.....you could consider

1.0 lightly cleaning the rails with stainless steel washing pads **minus the soap**
1.1 once cleaned....never touch with thumb & forefinger
1.2 wipe over with one of those ISOPOLOP??????? computer wipes...you know di-eletric....bi-electric..anti static....sheets
1.3 lightly spray with a suitable metal primer as soon as possible
1.4 spray with your final finish

Good luck  {-)   Derek
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Lord Bungle

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2011, 11:17:33 AM »

clean up the metal work to remove any residue from flux, finger prints, and if your like me chip fat (I may do some modeling with some chips on side just in case I get a bit peckish) and then spray a couple of light coats of this on http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/product_storeId_10001_catalogId_10151_productId_170745_langId_-1_categoryId_165625 you may find it cheaper else where :) remember to wear a mask as this stuff isn't fun for your lungs
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pugwash

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2011, 11:35:07 AM »

John, unfortunately working on 1/96 scale they are very small and each stanchion is superglued into the hull and the wires tack soldered
onto the stanchions so taking them off is not an option.  Working is a bigger scale I think I would have made them up and primed/paintied them
prior to fitting.
I have read somewhere that vinegar can clean/partially etch the surface as it is a mild acid - is this correct? If so I could clean then with vinegar and cotton buds.
Derek I do have a spray container of computer anti-static cleaner but it must be the only container in the house that does not list its ingredients.
If I can clean them does anyone have the trade name of any etch primer available in UK.
Geoff
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Lord Bungle

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 11:40:30 AM »

Geoff the etch primer in my link is available from Halfords, Check the ingredients on the vinegar I know it sounds daft but some are more water and sugar than vinegar. You could raid the wife's make up kit for some nail vanish remover this should also work at removing grease
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pugwash

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 12:01:29 PM »

L.B.  I did google the Halford primer last night and in the Q and A section they were asked if it would bond to brass and the
answere was "No", so have you used it yourself??
I didn't even know my wife used nail varnish when she was at work but she has given me a big bottle of remover so that is one
option for the cleaning - now down to boots for the cotton buds.
Geoff
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Circlip

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2011, 01:43:22 PM »

Be aware, most modern Nail Varnish removers contain an oiling content to re feed oils into the nail taken out by the solvent. Thanks to all the damage created by the Elfins, virtually ALL the decent chemicals we used to try and poison ourselves with in the past are now not easily obtained unless you know someone in the trade.

  Nail polish remover was Acetone (Cellulose paint thinners)

 Correction fluid thinners was Trichlorethylene - later Trichloroethane, supposed to be the "Safe" variant. (Snopake)

 Dry cleaning fluid was Carbon Tetrachloride (Used in the old brass fire extinguishers we saw in the bus drivers cab)

 One of the preparations for cleaning Brass is based on Ammonia but don't let the inspectors see you doing it. %)

  Regards  Ian.


Yes, just read all the bulsh in "Solvents" thread, common sense springs to mind. Guns kill so don't point the open end at yourself/any of your loved ones and pull the trigger, Doh!
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Lord Bungle

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 12:39:20 AM »

L.B.  I did google the Halford primer last night and in the Q and A section they were asked if it would bond to brass and the
answere was "No", so have you used it yourself??
I didn't even know my wife used nail varnish when she was at work but she has given me a big bottle of remover so that is one
option for the cleaning - now down to boots for the cotton buds.
Geoff
I haven't used that brand myself as the stuff I used when in the paint game is probably now banned due to the high zinc chromate content.
Phoenix Paints have this info on their site about non ferrous metals.
 Brass, copper, aluminium and nickel silver, in fact all non-ferrous metals should be etch primed before applying any subsequent coats of paint. These metals have an oxide layer which paints do not adhere to very well. Even if abraded with abrasive paper, the oxide layer reforms within 2 or 3 seconds!! Etch Primer has an acid in it to microscopically eat through the oxide layer and into the metal thus providing a key for the paint.

http://www.u-pol.com/documents/datasheets/tds/ACID8AL-TDS-EN.pdf
there is an email for their tech department so you could ask them is its ok.
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Lord Bungle

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 12:46:06 AM »

Be aware, most modern Nail Varnish removers contain an oiling content to re feed oils into the nail taken out by the solvent. Thanks to all the damage created by the Elfins, virtually ALL the decent chemicals we used to try and poison ourselves with in the past are now not easily obtained unless you know someone in the trade.

  Nail polish remover was Acetone (Cellulose paint thinners)

 Correction fluid thinners was Trichlorethylene - later Trichloroethane, supposed to be the "Safe" variant. (Snopake)

 Dry cleaning fluid was Carbon Tetrachloride (Used in the old brass fire extinguishers we saw in the bus drivers cab)

 One of the preparations for cleaning Brass is based on Ammonia but don't let the inspectors see you doing it. %)

  Regards  Ian.


Yes, just read all the bulsh in "Solvents" thread, common sense springs to mind. Guns kill so don't point the open end at yourself/any of your loved ones and pull the trigger, Doh!
acetone and cellulose  are not the same  acetone is  (CH3)2CO while Cellulose is (C6H10O5)n
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pugwash

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2011, 01:01:21 AM »

Thanks L.B. A few points to ponder - The annoying thing is I am a member of three boat forum and in the past few days someone on one of them
has given details of a brass primer which turns the brass black or brown whichever colour you choose - this was before I had problems and took only a passing
interest.  Of course I can't find it now and the person concerned has not replied.  Apparently with this stuff that is all you need if you want the colour they supply
no need to paint afterwards so the rail would stay nice an thin.  Murphy's Law methinks.
Geoff
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oldiron

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2011, 03:08:55 AM »

Thanks L.B. A few points to ponder - The annoying thing is I am a member of three boat forum and in the past few days someone on one of them
has given details of a brass primer which turns the brass black or brown whichever colour you choose - this was before I had problems and took only a passing
interest.  Of course I can't find it now and the person concerned has not replied.  Apparently with this stuff that is all you need if you want the colour they supply
no need to paint afterwards so the rail would stay nice an thin.  Murphy's Law methinks.
Geoff

Geoff

Maybe this is what you're looking for: http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/158-2

or this one: http://www.missionmodels.com/product.php?productid=16775&cat=260&bestseller

They will both blacken metals. Forgot about that myself. Used A west years ago and it did work.

John
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oldiron

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2011, 03:15:28 AM »

Thanks L.B. A few points to ponder - The annoying thing is I am a member of three boat forum and in the past few days someone on one of them
has given details of a brass primer which turns the brass black or brown whichever colour you choose - this was before I had problems and took only a passing
interest.  Of course I can't find it now and the person concerned has not replied.  Apparently with this stuff that is all you need if you want the colour they supply
no need to paint afterwards so the rail would stay nice an thin.  Murphy's Law methinks.
Geoff

  Geoff:

 Micro Mart also has Blacken It and a great article on using it and weathering: http://rrmodelcraftsman.com/toolchest/cm_craftsmantoolchest_02.php

John
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pugwash

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2011, 05:10:00 AM »

Thanks John that seems to be just the thing - now got to see if I can find an importer to Britain or at least someone closer
than Milwaukee
Geoff
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derekwarner

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2011, 05:18:45 AM »

Hi pugwash.......I think any stained glass ...leadlight glass merchant or shop will have a similar product similar to the attachment....it is 25% nitric acid + varying metal nitrates.... %% Derek
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Derek Warner

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Gra

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2011, 05:33:25 AM »

Hi Geoff,
Do you have Gunze Sangyo hobby paints in the UK.
They have a Metal Primer p/n mp-242 in 40ml bottle labelled Mr Metal Primer.
I use this to etch my brass fittings.

Gra
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pugwash

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2011, 05:51:53 AM »

Thanks Derek and Gra-  I know of a stained glass studio and yes these paints are stocked over here so I will  go a'googling tomorrow

Geoff
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Lord Bungle

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2011, 09:50:28 AM »

might also be worth having a go on a bit of scrap with some Citric Acid, or Lemon juice as its better known (it could even work as an etch if you wish to have a try) and if you only use a couple of slices you can use the rest in a nice G&T  :-))
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Stan

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2011, 12:39:01 PM »

HI Pugwash P/M SENT.

Stan :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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tt1

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Re: priming brass fine wire guardrails - what to use
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2011, 09:14:21 PM »

Come on Stan, share your little secret then!   {-) {-) {-)  Looking forward to seeing you at Ellesmere  :-)) Tony.
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