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Author Topic: Japan Earthquake & Tsunami  (Read 16362 times)

polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #50 on: March 15, 2011, 04:27:32 pm »


Dear All,

Take note of what Doddygeezer says, he clearly knows about this field. Probably won't say where from either!

These plants were getting close to decommissioning, and it is 'unfortunate' that this has occurred at this time. They are pumping sea water through everything because of this. OK, this might should have possibly not have happened, but please bear in mind that this plant was built at a time when things presently was were not thoroughly known. OK, not much of an excuse really... if in doubt over engineer of course - a long term principal of mine, but my involvements don't cost me 100's of M's! Still no excuse, but that was the way 40 or so years ago.

What is going to happen will happen whatever be the case, and there is absolutely nothing whatsoever we can do about it, so we can only hope the engineers in charge will cope with it - and wish them a great deal of luck. I for one am glad I am not within 200 miles of the place.

Regards, Bernard
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #51 on: March 15, 2011, 04:41:10 pm »

As DG points out, there is plenty of radioactivity left over as a result of the atmospheric nuclear tests.In fact I recall reading a while back that it is almost impossible to get or make non radioactive steel for instrumentation purposes now as a result of this and that the remaining uncontaminated sources are the armour plates on the warships sunk before 1945,

Colin
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Shipmate60

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #52 on: March 15, 2011, 05:24:41 pm »

I see Hawaii got hit by a Tsunami.
It feels strange as we were in Kona 3 weeks ago and know the places affected.

http://www.bigislandvideonews.com/2011/03/13/video-hawaii-county-mayors-kona-tsunami-damage-update/

Bob
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #53 on: March 15, 2011, 05:30:06 pm »


... I for one am glad I am not within 200 miles of the place.


I'm glad I'm not within about 20ft of the pressure vent pipe. If I stayed directly in front of it for an hour while they were venting, I would end up with radiation burns, though I would expect to recover...

if I were about 2000 feet away while they were venting, and the O2/H2 mixture went off, as has happened a few times now, I would expect to get blast damage to my eardrums, and might be unlucky enough to get killed by flying debris. I would have an increased gamma-ray dose, but probably nothing to worry about...

if I were 20 miles away I might be just inside the exclusion zone, and would be unhappy because I would be being moved away from where my home used to be...

if I were 200 miles away I would probably still be in Japan, and so suffering the disruption and privation that much of Japan is suffering at the moment..

So, on the whole, I'm glad to be upwards of 2000 miles away....
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #54 on: March 15, 2011, 05:32:29 pm »

Amongst the blame being levelled at the Japanese, there must be a lot of unsung heroics going on among the engineers who are struggling to contain the situation. I bet they all wish they were 200 miles away as well.

Colin
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #55 on: March 15, 2011, 06:47:08 pm »

...there must be a lot of unsung heroics going on among the engineers who are struggling to contain the situation.

Colin is perfectly correct. While we speak there are engineers trying to vent explosive gases safely in impossible conditions - there have been injuries and at least one death, but they are still on-site. It would be nice to see the BBC recognise this...
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polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #56 on: March 15, 2011, 08:22:50 pm »


Dear Doddgygeezer,

You are in my opinion the only person qualified to speak on this matter.

During Indonesia, I put my name down as an excav. driver for a certain Mfr. but was sidellined with the response. Seems to have carried though now... since and though I am not licensed to drive anything beyond 10t, but now anything beyond 40t and beyond is absolutely no problem at all... why this? I know....

Sorry to say, that - without standing commitments - and Family commitments - there is nothing on this Planet that would get me within 2000k of the place... sorry and and all that, but that's that.

Regards, Bernard

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #57 on: March 15, 2011, 09:00:23 pm »

From the BBC website:

A small group of workers have been battling around the clock to stave off disaster at "xxxxx" Daiichi. The BBC's Aidan Lewis says: "The few dozen who are left have faced explosions and fires as they rush to pump sea water into overheated reactors. The workers are being rotated in and out, to try to limit their exposure to radiation. They are also assumed to be wearing sophisticated protective clothing.Brave men.

Colin
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #58 on: March 15, 2011, 10:34:10 pm »

You are in my opinion the only person qualified to speak on this matter....

I am not speaking from any inside knowledge of the current situation in Japan - just from publicly available information. And different people may bring different points of view to a conversation, so I don't think that people should be ignored if they are 'not qualified'. Frequently the best contributions are made by people who are approaching a problem from the outside....   

One point to make is that, until we know which radionuclides are being emitted, it is not correct to assume that the radiation levels detected at the reactor are the same as those which will impact the countryside. I suspect that they are venting short-lived isotopes at times when the prevailing wind is out to sea. And time is on their side - the longer things go on the cooler the reactors get...


From the BBC website:

A small group of workers have been battling around the clock to stave off disaster at "xxxxx" Daiichi. The BBC's Aidan Lewis says: "The few dozen who are left have faced explosions and fires as they rush to pump sea water into overheated reactors. The workers are being rotated in and out, to try to limit their exposure to radiation. They are also assumed to be wearing sophisticated protective clothing.Brave men.

Colin

Also on that site:
The BBC's Aidan Lewis adds: "The operator of the plant, Tokyo Electric Power Company (Tepco), has given no information about their employees. But one expert suggested that workers who have retired or are based in other parts of the country are likely to be called in as the crisis drags on. Those already on duty are being hailed as heroes."

I suspect that the rotation of staff is as much because they are worn out as due to the increased radiation! They will be wearing the regulation protective clothing prescribed for the sector they are working in, but this will be of little use if they are trying to operate a diesel pump and an aftershock topples it on top of them, or another hydrogen explosion goes off..

If they are taking radiation in excess of the permitted dosage they will probably themselves unable to work in their normal jobs after the emergency has ceased. I hope that TEPCO will look after them if this is the case....
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polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #59 on: March 16, 2011, 12:38:58 am »


Dear Doddgygeezer,

Your are near in as many words, ""people should not be ignored if they are 'not qualified'. Frequently the best contributions are made by people who are approaching a problem from the outside"" that these words were said to me by someone else today by an Authority in connection with an extremely important matter totally unconnected, and it is indeed most certainly true - my requested evidence has not long ago been emailed to the Investigator-in-Charge (not Police I add). I have spent the last damn hour looking for a letter from 1985 or thereabouts, from a 'senior figure' on the matter so to further prove my point, that I know I have on file somehere, but I am damned if I can find the bloody thing. It doesn't really matter, since there will be record off it on file 'somewhere', but I saw it only a year ago or thereabouts and refiled the bloody thing so to make things easier. Ha, Ha. Damn it.

To your point. The levels are only what we are told they are. Twice exposed No.3. rods bad thing, partially melted supposedly worse, and this preliminary is how Chernobyl commenced but once in a fatal way. Furthermore, it has been admitted that waste containments are boiling... not a good thing... combined with the fact that the other two reactors 'are not very happy', the engineers have a rather tough task in front of them. Bad and very 'awkward' job all in all... won't say the obvious.

Regards, Bernard
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #60 on: March 16, 2011, 01:38:21 am »


The levels are only what we are told they are. Twice exposed No.3. rods bad thing, partially melted supposedly worse, and this preliminary is how Chernobyl commenced but once in a fatal way. Furthermore, it has been admitted that waste containments are boiling... not a good thing... combined with the fact that the other two reactors 'are not very happy', the engineers have a rather tough task in front of them. Bad and very 'awkward' job all in all... won't say the obvious.


Indeed. I am unhappy at the low level of detail being provided by the authorities - a lot of what they are saying is rather confusing to me.

What I suspect is happening is that the reactors are having negative void coefficient power excursions. This is really a subject for the steam lads amongst us. The water cooling the fuel rods also works as a moderator to slow the neutrons to a suitable reaction speed. If it starts boiling, bubbles of steam (voids) will appear in the water, and the water will become less dense. This will affect the neutrons and drop the reaction rate.

But then the pressure will rise to a point where the steam bubbles collapse. And suddenly the water density spikes, and the nuclear reaction surges up again, at precisely the wrong time. Since boiling is a function of temperature and pressure, this unstable state can be entered several times as a reactor is brought out of criticality. To control it properly you need good control of the pressure and coolant, which they probably have not got in their post-earthquake state...
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tigertiger

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #61 on: March 16, 2011, 08:41:46 am »

Indeed. I am unhappy at the low level of detail being provided by the authorities - a lot of what they are saying is rather confusing to me.


The term 'cover-up' is already bouncing around the media here in China.
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polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #62 on: March 16, 2011, 04:11:17 pm »


Dear Tiger Tiger,

In fairness to them, they are working extremely hard and the situation is most probably changing minute by minute, so it will be difficult to give out facts since within an hour it will all be different... and different again an hour after that. A situation where you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't... a hateful place to be. As to covering things up... I don't think they have time for that... there is a World of experts out there who will know exactly what is going on.

Brave men indeed are those who are on the ground.

Regards, Bernard
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Dekan

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #63 on: March 16, 2011, 08:53:51 pm »

IHMO The Nuclear Industry is secretive in the extreme and has continually lied to it's self and it's masters for years.

A work college worked at Windscale ..Sellerfield %) for several years and has confirmed as in all things human, accidents were not unknown and there was a culture of keeping them covered up "they didn't want frighten the plebs"   

The one thing you can be sure of is the Nuclear industry has a deep distrust in the public and this will probably not change anytime soon..Already the Americans are saying that the Japanese are spinning their situation with non information..

Maybe if they just give people the facts... but then again a certain type people get a real buzz and a sense of powers from knowing something that others do not.   
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tigertiger

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #64 on: March 17, 2011, 12:11:43 pm »

Interesting that China has now put its nuclear development on hold. Pending further investigations.


One issue brought to light by an Indian academic (and I think UN guy) on TV here.
The effects of burning fossil fuels are having a major impact, but nuclear is some how seen as more insidious. Thousands die in mine accidents each year. Polluted air kills millions every year, acid rain destroys good farm land and forest, global warming. We kind of accept the effects of burning fossil fuel. He also went on to point out that the oil lobby and the fossil fuel lobby will be having a field day, stirring up anti-nuke sentiments. But nuclear energy, even with Chernobyl, is still a relatively safe option.
[note: I remember a statistic that pollution from fossil fuels caused the premature deaths of 80,000 + people every year in the UK]

You have to consider where this guy is coming from. Developing countries need energy to grow their economies, but they don'e always have the cleanest coal/oil power stations and many developing countries do not burn natural gas.

Part of the reason for so much nuclear energy in Japan is due to American foreign policy. They want Japan to be as independent as possible regards meeting its energy needs. It is easy to forget that the main reason for Japan's expansionism, that lead to War in the Pacific, was access to oil.

If China, India, and Brazil get to the per capita energy consumption  of the West, and they will, then fossil fuel is not the answer. Nukes must be part of the answer. In addition to renewable resources (some of these also burn carbon by the way).

Currently China has 13 nuke power stations, that produce less than 5% of energy needs. There were plans for another 26 nuke power stations. But they are only seen as part of the solution. China has a lot of Hydro power. This is arguably clean energy, but hydro has a big impact on the environment upstream and downstream. This can have huge negative effects on local economies, health, as well as the environment. Some dam projects are also built in seismically active areas, and there is a fear that very large projects could cause seismic activity.


I know I have gone on a bit. And I am not a big nuke supporter, but most of the alternatives carry risk too. And the most common alternative (coal/oil) is probably much worse.
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pugwash

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #65 on: March 17, 2011, 12:56:48 pm »

There lies the problem in a nutshell - every few years a big media fest disaster in a nuclear power station or the insidious death of 1000s every year from
air pollution of the burning of fossil fuels. Hydro is great for a county like Norway or Scotland but neither example has a huge population.
Wind power expensive and unreliable - my anemometer been reading 0 knots for the past 24hrs and we are the windiest country in Europe.
Until they tame nuclear fusion it remains with nuclear fission and its attendant risks

Geoff
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #66 on: March 17, 2011, 05:39:04 pm »

The obvious thing to do is to go for Thorium technology - about as risk free as it's possible to get. But since that also has the magic word 'nuclear' in its vocabulary, I suppose that's banned as well...

Having looked at a lot of blogs on the Japan problem, I note that most people seem to be saying that it is no big deal. I don't think the general public are actually that fussed about it. But the activists are, and they stir up the politicians. I would not be surprised to find that there is a strong majority in favour of nuclear power, but it is a strong SILENT majority... 
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polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #67 on: March 17, 2011, 06:03:22 pm »


Dear Dodgy Geezer,

I believe you might re referring to Cold Fusion? A friend of mine was on the fringes of this, but sadly died about five or so years ago, so I lost my info. link.

As to hydro power in general, this I am a little involved with. There is plenty of potential in GB, but as soon as someone suggests building a dam, a barrage, or a lagoon, the conservationists come out of the woodwork and that's that - even two conservation bodies involved with the Seven Barrage couldn't agree (one for and one against!) - this 'argument' actually took place on transmitted TV!

There is bound to be knee jerk reaction over nuclear after this - as there was after Chernobyl. The trouble is elec. has got to come from somewhere... forget about windfarms, just a profitable sop for some. So, if people don't want nuclear, they don't want to burn what's left of our oil/gas/coal, there is only one very effective solution - water. The whole of GB survived on it long before steam arrived... and what enabled the first steam engines to be made... waterpower!

So, when these environmentalists etc. eventually get their heads out of the sand, maybe GB can get down to building hydro plants - which should have been done decades ago.

Regards, Bernard
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #68 on: March 17, 2011, 07:54:05 pm »


I believe you might re referring to Cold Fusion?


No - Thorium can be made to operate in reactor in a similar manner to Uranium, but for a variety of reasons it is much safer and more controllable. And the world is awash with it - the reserves are effectively limitless. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle refers. India leads this field at the moment, however, and I suspect that the activists will stop any development here. >:-o >:-o

Hydro power is great, and, in common with the rest of Mayhem, I would strongly support the development of large lakes wherever possible.  :D  But I fear we may have some difficulty with the amount of water head you can achieve in Norfolk.....  {:-{
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tigertiger

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #69 on: March 18, 2011, 03:23:06 am »

The problem with water power (consider it different to hydro power) is that the demands for power before the industrial revolution were much lower than they would be today. It is great for small industrial units, very small, but not for larger industry.

We relied more on human power and animal power in those days. We (man and animals) fuelled up several a day, created our own fertilizer to grow the food for fuel, and bred our own replacements. However, life was much harder then and life expectancy was shorter. I don't think most of us would want to go back, even if it does sound idyllic.
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BarryM

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #70 on: March 18, 2011, 08:12:00 am »

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polaris

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #71 on: March 18, 2011, 06:33:50 pm »


Dear DodgyGeezer, Tiger Tiger, & Barry, I reply in one Post.
 
Dear Barry, Yes, good news re the Scottish Proj.. N.Ireland has had one for some while now and is doing well with it. B.
 
Dear Tiger Tiger, British mining - as just one industry - survived very well with water power up until steam arrived, with many thousands of hp. - and from single take-off's alone (just one mine for example had six wheels in tandem from two leat supplies from three reservoirs producing probably nearly 300 hp.. Collieries were first with steam use, Cornwall second, and other areas progressively if they could obtain a cost effective supply coal. Some metal mining areas continued with water power until their decline in the 1920's (pelton wheels and various forms of turbines), and in Wales alone this was many thousands of hp. between lead, zinc, copper, slate. Many villages throughout the more 'hilly' regions of GB generated electricity by pelton wheel and turbines from 30 to 200 hp. each - privately owned operators - and indeed there were many private micro-generators between 1920 to as late as 1960 - powering anything from hotels, small factories, farms, and private houses. The development of the grid, and 'national local' supply, made this supply more convenient so private generation went into decline - I make no mention of the countless corn, wool, flannel, and other mills that used water (many with between two, three or four water wheels from one river source - 40 to 60hp each wheel). All these power sources are still there, and very very few are being used now... mainly due to the EA or other bodies blocking them... things are afoot to get this sorted out. If you look at the existing main hydro elec. schemes in GB (& personally don't rate pumped storage), many could be enlarged by placing other dams either above or below the existing facilities. Many rivers and hydro sources can be utilised more times than they are at the moment. Just one example is the Elan Valley (Birm.Water Supply), where the foundations were prepared for a future dam when the scheme was built in the late 1890's, and it remains so to this day - it could be built and switched between power generation and water supply (if the latter was ever needed). Many micro hydro schemes are possible, generating between 35 to 80kv +, but most are, again, being blocked by the EA etc., etc.. I make no mention here of the possibilities of barrages, tidal. And so the sorry tale goes on and on... one day it will happen of course... because it will have to! B.
 
Dear DodgyGeezer, Thanks for the info.. Even Norfolk could produce hydro.! B.
 
Regards To All, Bernard
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john s 2

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #72 on: March 18, 2011, 08:06:46 pm »

I notice that the head of Toyko Electric has appeared on Television and admitted that information was withheld.
He was seen crying after the interview. No doubt worried about his job . Personally i would have a lot more
respect for him if he turned up at the site to assist and give moral support to the brave men. Who are risking
their lives to avoid disarster. Not much chance of this happening. He would not want to receive radiation unlike
his brave workers. 
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tigertiger

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #73 on: March 19, 2011, 01:38:34 am »

I notice that the head of Toyko Electric has appeared on Television and admitted that information was withheld.
He was seen crying after the interview. No doubt worried about his job . Personally i would have a lot more
respect for him if he turned up at the site to assist and give moral support to the brave men. Who are risking
their lives to avoid disarster. Not much chance of this happening. He would not want to receive radiation unlike
his brave workers. 

The bowing, apologising profusely and crying is SOP in Japan, when things go wrong. It is the modern professional equivalent of falling on your sword.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Japan Earthquake!
« Reply #74 on: March 19, 2011, 12:09:48 pm »

The bowing, apologising profusely and crying is SOP in Japan, when things go wrong. It is the modern professional equivalent of falling on your sword.

Indeed. They actually take some responsibility? The Japanese are really so old-fashioned...

For politicians in this country, the equivalent is:

1) To ignore the issue for as long as possible.

2) To go on television and say "I will not apologise for being correct in all the difficult decisions which I had to make. There is a lot of highly classified information which unfortunately I cannot show you which shows that I was right to do all the things that I did, and which exonerates me from all blame. Now let us move on into a bright new future..."

3) If necessary, sack a friend from a lucrative government position, saying "Mr X is a tireless worker who has my full support, and I am sorry that he feels that he has to take full responsibility for the recent problems..."

4)  Re-employ said friend in a couple of months time when the heat has died down.... 

5) If it surfaces again, set up a committee of enquiry with carefully limited terms of reference, stuffed with people who were responsible for the original disaster, and provide a draft copy of the eventual whitewash findings to the chairman at the same time as you appoint him...
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