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[Double D]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1365272/Emergency-services-left-man-floating-face-lake-half-hour-health-safety-reasons.html

[Netleyned]

I can't reply to the post Audie as I would be banned from Mayhem for my comments 

Ned

[The long Build]

I can understand the need for caution but there really should have been no problems with that amount of help at hand..  

[steamboatmodel]

One of the first duties of a first responder is to insure your own safety and when a victim is floating face down the chances of live recovery is low. Having said that I do feel from reading the article that there was a lack of proper response from them. They could have used a line around the retriever and been safe.
Regards,
Gerald.

[chingdevil]

They should have got on and done their jobs, health a safety taken to that exreme is only for lazy paople and their boses encourage it. Too many emergency personnel nowdays quote health and safety when they do not do their job properly, that is PC speak for "I am too lazy to do it" but I like taking the money.


Brian

[Number 6]

I'm retained firefighter for Staffordshire Fire & Rescue Service. We've all been trained in water rescue techniques in both moving and static water, we'd have gone in without doubt or any hesitation. You're trained to evaluate the risks, these were very, very minimal in these circumstances. They would've known the area and knew it wasn't very deep. I may be wrong but I think ALL fire appliances throughout the country carry water gear including DRY suits, buoyancy aids, life jackets, throw lines etc. All appliances in Staffordshire carry the gear mentioned, it takes minutes to put on, if needed. We're trained to go into a burning, smoke logged building with unbreathable atmosphere and near zero visability but these lot couldn't go into a 3 foot deep pool, it stinks, and I find it quite embarrassing. It's Health & Safety gone stupid again, they were probably too scared of being reprimanded for not going by the book. Fire Authorities are very good at writting rules and 'operational procedures' and using them as 'get outs' if anything doesn't go as planned. Dave.  

[regiment]

if an exservice  person had been their he/she would have pulled him out as my wife said when i pulled a woman out of a blazing building your mad but your a saint but then we had no h@s then back in the 60s

[pugwash]

Having had a friend (d/sgt) die in the river Clyde in a successful attempt to save an 8yr old boy from the river
and another P.C. blinded by the chemicals that used to be in the water in a separate rescue I can only say
I am disgusted by the attitudes shown in Hampshire - I'm most surprised that someone there didn't just
ignore their control room and go in anyway.  Things have certainly changed in 40 yrs.

Geoff

[barryfoote]

I personally have gone into water to try to rescue a drowning person. I failed but would not have been able to sleep if I had not tried. I have also gone into a burning building in an attempt to rescue people.........It was just part of the job and we ALL did it.

The protection of life comes first and that means trying to help those in need, not leaving them because they are probably dead anyway.......I am disgusted..

[Circlip]

: ‘I’m furious that witnesses and the emergency services stood by and watched while waiting for the specialist team to drive all the way from Fareham

   Seems the "Witnesses" were ineffective too, and who called the emergency services? No excuse for ANY involved.

[Colin Bishop]

Seems the "Witnesses" were ineffective too, and who called the emergency services? No excuse for ANY involved.

Good point. But we must first assume that the report is accurate - it may not be. But if it is then humanitarian considerations dictate that all those present should have attempted to do something even if it did look as if the casualty was already dead.

There are instances where it would be foolhardy to put your own life at risk in a situation where it is doubtful if it would do any good, entering a fast flowing river or very rough surf for example, but this was an inland model boating pond and it should would have been easy enough to ascertain the depth from the edge and proceed with caution from there.

Colin

[DavieTait]

Not the first and sadly this will not be the last H&S excused for leaving someone to die. We had a worse one in Scotland a few years ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12525016

Rescue claim over Alison Hume mine shaft death

An inquiry into the death of a woman who fell down a mine shaft in Ayrshire has been told a specialist cave rescue organisation should have been called.

Alan Jeffreys, a leading member of the Scottish Cave Rescue Organisation, said its members had practised such rescues.

He was giving evidence at a re-opened fatal accident inquiry in Kilmarnock into the death of Alison Hume, 44.

She suffered a heart attack on being rescued after six hours down the shaft near her home in Galston, in July 2008.

Mr Jeffrey's told the inquiry, at Kilmarnock Sheriff Court, how his team of Edinburgh-based volunteers could have been on the scene within 100 minutes of being contacted by the emergency services.

He said such a call was ruled out by a police sergeant who said he was "quite happy" his police mountain rescue personnel could cope.

Mr Jeffreys, 69, said: "The ethic of cave rescue teams is to get the casualty out as quickly as possible. Get them to the entrance where they can get proper medical care.

Ms Hume's family have called for better rescue co-ordination

"Hypothermia can be an issue. We have a 'Little Dragon' in a dispenser that can warm the casualty up."

He also said that a specialist piece of equipment, called a Larkin Frame, could have been used to provide leverage for a rescue but admitted his group did not possess one at the time.

A joint training exercise was arranged between his cave volunteers and Strathclyde Police, but not until after Ms Hume's death.

The inquiry had previously heard how Ms Hume's rescue was delayed as firefighters who volunteered to be lowered down were over-ruled by senior officers for health and safety reasons.

The probe was adjourned at the end of March last year after Sheriff Desmond Leslie finished hearing evidence.
Legal history

He decided to reopen the inquiry in August after receiving a letter from a retired fire officer asking to give evidence as a late witness.

Sheriff Leslie reopened the inquiry for a second time on Monday to hear evidence from Mr Jeffreys.

It has now made legal history in Scotland as the first inquiry of its kind to be re-opened twice because people were unhappy with the evidence which had been led in court.

Speaking after Mr Jeffrey's evidence, Sheriff Leslie said: "I think that concludes the inquiry. I don't anticipate there is any possible evidence which we have not already heard.

"Any further proceedings would be straying into the territory of a public inquiry, which is not our remit."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-12610863





This poor woman was 6 HOURS with fire fighters above her and they HAD the rescue equipment in the unit they had but a "senior officer" banned them from going down due to "health and safety" , in other words a "senior officer" that should be sacked from his job and jailed for manslaughter. She lived for 6 hours after being found but died shortly after being taken out , had they done the job they wanted to ( the fire fighters were more than ready to go down using their rescue equipment it was this idiot of a manager that stopped them ) she would still be alive today

[Colin Bishop]

What seems to go wrong in these circumstances is a lack of intelligent risk assessment on the part of those present. Instead you get a default to no risk and people die who could have been saved. For intelligent risk assessment read common sense. The problem is that if the senior person on the spot makes the wrong call, instead of being commended for doing their best in frequently very difficult circumstances, they are in practice opening themselves up to a possible charge of manslaughter. Emergency services staff should be given appropriate training and then allowed to exercise their personal judgement which should be backed by their superiors. In emergency situations it has to be recognised that sometimes there will be an unfortunate outcome and mistakes may be made but the important thing is that those present did everything possible to the extent of their ability and this should be recognised. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but if you are put on the spot you have to make immediate decisions and it is good training which will give the best hope of a positive outcome. If things don't work out, well that's the way it sometimes happens and there should not be an immediate rush to pin the blame on someone.

Colin

[triumphjon]

you can only ask why call 999 for the emergency services if when they attend the scene they are not going to deal with the situation in hand ? as an area surrounded by water ( gosport being a peninsula ) youd have thought all emergency services in the county should be capable of entering the water at any time ?

[Stavros]

Absolutely PATHETIC how can those SO CALLED emergency service personnel sleep at night let alone live with themselves they should RESIGN immediately HSE MY DERRIER


Stav

[Yarpie]

Very ....... very well said Colin.

We appear to have had the ability to 'think on our feet' removed from our psyche by the subversive conditioning of the 'Bleeding Heart Brigade'.

Saving life or limb used to be a reflex action and not a 'considered option'.

[longshanks]

I hope that the personnel involved are now feeling embarrassed and ashamed for taking money us as tax payers.

They are clearly  in the wrong profession - I would suggest a course in how to become a manakin !!!!

[Stavros]

One sentence spring to mind on this

PROFFESIONALLY INCOMPETENT AND NOT FIT TO BE IN THE JOB BEING PAID TO DO


Stav

[pugwash]

Whilst in Glasgow I was about 6 weeks in to Police when a lorry driver stopped and said "there is  woman in the river (Clyde)
so I ran round to Carlton place foot bridge in the Gorbals to see about 40-50 people on the bridge watching something in the water
about 50yd downstream.
It was late march and freezing so I ran down the bank and stripped off and jumped in and swam to where she was last seen,
I dived down a couple of times but could now find her and eventually had to come back to the bank.  I stiil don't know why I did it,
I think it was becuse I was a PC in uniform and felt I had to try as it was my job.  I was petrified as the river was running reasonably fast
and ended up in hospital for a stomach pump (chemicals again) and was ill for three weeks.  When I went back to the training school
after being ill all I got was "theres that stupid B that jumped in the river, should have had more sense"
But I honestly believe that most of them would have done the same thing.
As to the people on the bridge this is the first but not the last time that I came across the apathy of the general public (not all)
Its alright not theres there police.  Obviously with H @ S that is no longer the case
Geoff

[Colin Bishop]

Geoff,

You did it because it was the right thing to do and all credit to you. That is the absolute truth of the matter irrespective of what anyone might say about your action. You did what you could and despite the outcome you have the peace of mind that comes with the fact that you 'did your duty' and can take pride in that.

Colin

[funtimefrankie]

You have to remember that the story was in the Daily Mail, so we probably haven't been told the whole (true) story.

[richtea]

Also reported in Yorkshire Post

[yorkiej]

You have to remember that the story was in the Daily Mail, so we probably haven't been told the whole (true) story.

On what basis do you make that comment. Political ? A legitimate question I believe, as this is a tragedy not a point scoring exercise.
Did you not see the reports in other papers, including the Guardian, Mirror, Sun and Star, even the 'BBC' carried it,  or look at the pictures in the reports showing the aftermath.
A poor bloke died here when there is a reasonable chance he may have survived and in my view such comment is beneath contempt.
I suffered a fractured spine in 1972 rescuing a driver from a burning lorry on the A1. He survived and I was paralysed from the waist down for seven weeks until I could have surgery and nearly 40 years later I'm still suffering. 'No compensayshun' in those days and the Daily Mail didn't carry the story!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nor did any other paper except to say that there had been an accident and that traffic was delayed.
The definition of Police in those days was ' A Constable, Locally Appointed, for the Protection of Life and Property and the Prosecution of Offenders against the Peace'. Seems to me that it has changed to ' Look after me and nuts to the rest'.
I have other comment but refrain from using it.
Minus regards
John
 

[class37]

In one of the photos I note the air ambulance sat on the grass.

I take it that no one considered suspending a fireman - sorry fire person - in a harness and recovering the casualty in that way.

or would the written risk assessment have taken too long, and needed to be signed off by too many people.

obviously it was not a case of " right, water looks shallow but we don't know what the bottom is like, I want one volunteer to go in, and the others on a safety line on him incase he gets into trouble "

I mean to say, that's not what 'managers' do is it, make quick decisions and then stand by them, much easier to take the easy option and do nothing, and stop anyone else from doing anything as well.

what a pity there wasn't a TV crew there, you wouldn't have been able to see the water for rescuers then !!

[triumphjon]

i cannot see that any of the emergency services wouldnt know what the bottom of the lake is like , it was drained only last summer ! there was a report in our local paper about this poor gent on friday . hed only gone to feed the many swans that also enjoy the lake @ gosport . its a pity that with all those members of our first response teams ( paid ones ) on hand nobody thought to use the equipment in the fire tenders to assist in a rescue !