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Author Topic: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake  (Read 17751 times)

funtimefrankie

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #25 on: March 13, 2011, 09:22:17 am »

In one of the photos I note the air ambulance sat on the grass.

I take it that no one considered suspending a fireman - sorry fire person - in a harness and recovering the casualty in that way.

or would the written risk assessment have taken too long, and needed to be signed off by too many people.

And probably a redesign of the helicopter
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #26 on: March 13, 2011, 09:34:32 am »

madness!

I hope his family don't let this rest, this is incompetence on a biblical scale
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Lord Bungle

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #27 on: March 13, 2011, 10:18:22 am »

As an Ex-boy scout I would have had a go at rescuing him, Only only health and safety risk there would have been the shock to passer bys as my semi naked body emerged from the water,
1 rule if I remember rightly was never get wet unless you need to, use rope etc to trough to the victim, if the victim is unconscious you then go in, there were plenty standing around so a human chain could have been formed out to the victim,
I feel health and safety is used as an excuse to may times these days, mainly by people not wanting to bother to do things, will have to remember that at work, sorry I can't drive that vehicle because Health and Safety says I might have a crash, Or even better Sorry I have to stay in bed all day reading my boat books and going on MBM because health and safety says if I go out something might happen. I wonder how long anyone would keep their jobs?
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #28 on: March 13, 2011, 12:19:16 pm »

Health and safety is important.... but as others have said its being used now as an excuse.

I was up on the roof earlier clearing snow, and yes I did have a safety harness on, but I didnt fill in a risk assesement form, I do not have an NVQ in harnesses and harness management, or for that matter snow and snow clearing, but I got up there and did the job


Oh and horror of horrors the biggest error of all!





I did not wear a dayglo vest!
 :police: :police: :police: :police: :police:
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Lord Bungle

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #29 on: March 13, 2011, 12:22:23 pm »

Health and safety is important.... but as others have said its being used now as an excuse.

I was up on the roof earlier clearing snow, and yes I did have a safety harness on, but I didnt fill in a risk assesement form, I do not have an NVQ in harnesses and harness management, or for that matter snow and snow clearing, but I got up there and did the job


Oh and horror of horrors the biggest error of all!
I hope you had your safety hat on




I did not wear a dayglo vest!
 :police: :police: :police: :police: :police:
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ACTion

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #30 on: March 13, 2011, 12:30:09 pm »

I was drawn to the comments posted below the body of the article. Sure enough - this being the Daily Mail - it seems that at least one upstanding reader would attribute these shortcomings to a) David Cameron, and b) "huge" public sector pensions. Nothing changes much, does it?
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kinmel

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #31 on: March 13, 2011, 12:41:26 pm »

 I was a very senior fire officer for 30 years and back in the day, the officer in charge at an incident used his knowledge and experience to deal with things as they saw fit.

If things went wrong it was always because of a lack of information rather than recklessness, the safety message was " one hand for the job, one hand for yourself ".

Split second decisions were recognised as such by us senior officers and huge allowances were made for that fact when deciding how to react to personnel being injured and even killed.  

Over time the Health & Safety Executive decided that every service injury/ death was avoidable if only the service would follow rigid protocols and so they were introduced, simply to protect line managers from prosecution.

The H&SE was warned what would happen before the changes were made, but they failed to understand.

Now the H&SE recognises that people are dying unnecessarily, but it is very difficult to put the genie back in the bottle. There have been too many careers destroyed by H&SE's over-reactions to failure to follow protocols for it all to go away any time soon.  

H&SE still won't define what is acceptable, merely stating that in future they will "recognise" the difficulties in always obeying the written instructions, but none of those instructions have been torn up and each one can be used against you in court.

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dreadnought72

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #32 on: March 13, 2011, 02:15:29 pm »

I blame, in part, the rise of those "Injury Lawyers For You" type-parasites who are helping to turn us all in to scaredy cats, frightened of a big hit from a potential insurance claim.

It's nonsense.  >>:-(

Andy
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2011, 02:52:21 pm »

I blame, in part, the rise of those "Injury Lawyers For You" type-parasites who are helping to turn us all in to scaredy cats, frightened of a big hit from a potential insurance claim.

It's nonsense.  >>:-(

Andy

Quite true, If my kids fell out of a neighbors tree I wouldn't sue them, but some would.

Actually happened to me when I was a kid.... I fell out of a neighbors tree while I was stealing his apples.  For my troubles I had a broken wrist, a clip roun t'ear from the neighbor for stealing his apples And another from me dad for getting caught lol
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Netleyned

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2011, 04:01:54 pm »

Look to the future
House on fire
Too Hot
Ship Sinking
Too rough
I understand that some safety parameters would need to be addressed
The natural thing to do as a Human is to help
I overheard a teen on his mobile yesterday
'I fell but I can't sue cos they had a wet floor sign'
This is life on earth as we know it

Ned
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class37

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2011, 07:42:16 pm »

 "I was a very senior fire officer for 30 years and back in the day, the officer in charge at an incident used his knowledge and experience to deal with things as they saw fit."


I think this shows the problem clearly, he was a "fire officer" not a "manager".
As such he doubtless knew his job, his men, his equipment, and their capabilities.

He also, dare I say it, most probably had the backing of his senior officers, who had also done the job, and was willing to make informed decisions.

unfortunately now adays it seems that any inclination to take risks to do ones job is immeadiately smothered, mostly by managers who don't know what they are doing, and are s**t scared of making a decision.

pass the H&S manual, open to page one, read "Don't do anything," carefully close manual, ensuring fingers are clear, and then, using safe manual handling techniques return  manual to shelf.

makes you proud doesn't it !
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kinmel

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #36 on: March 13, 2011, 09:33:26 pm »



unfortunately now adays it seems that any inclination to take risks to do ones job is immeadiately smothered, mostly by managers who don't know what they are doing, and are s**t scared of making a decision.

pass the H&S manual, open to page one, read "Don't do anything," carefully close manual, ensuring fingers are clear, and then, using safe manual handling techniques return  manual to shelf.

makes you proud doesn't it !


The problem is not the upper management itself, modern senior officers are as outraged as the general public, but have no choices.   

The H&SE spend six months considering a decision that had to be made in 10 seconds and then decide to prosecute because of "errors" and management's failure to enforce the "proper procedure" in the past has cost some people their job.  Why would you allow someone to use their initiative if it will cost you your job, even if you never attended the incident.

The four Warwickshire firefighters who died in 2007, entered the building to search for casualties, a command decision that took moments to make. 

If they had not gone into that building to search and people had been trapped inside, they would have suffered the same bad Press as so many others before and since.

Now, over 3 years later, the HS&E have decided to prosecute the incident "managers" for manslaughter by gross negligence because the exact "safe" procedure was not followed and no doubt some will be jailed.

Fire service managers therefore obey the rules, after all the H&SE know that their actions are causing avoidable casualty injuries and deaths and remain unmoved.

Parliament could solve this tomorrow.
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class37

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #37 on: March 13, 2011, 09:47:36 pm »

Kinmel,

thank you for clarifying the situation. I did not intend any disrespect to those people who do try to do their job professionally.

The trouble as I see it is that according to H&S there is no such thing as an accident.

the police these days refer to RTCs rather than RTAs for this very reason, and because there is no such thing as an accident, then someone must be responsible for anything that happens.

however, if you continue this to it's logical conclusion, and lets be honest there is nothing logical about most of H&S policy, then the person ultimately responsible for the final outcome of any occurance must be the head of H&S, because if there are no such things as accidents, what happens must be as a result of the policy laid down by his department !

or is that the point where the goalposts suddenly start moving ?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #38 on: March 13, 2011, 10:41:44 pm »

The basic problem is a break in the chain of accountability. H&S set the rules but they are not accountable for the way they are applied. Blame stops at the operational level. It is is classic case of power without responsibility.

Colin
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Lord Bungle

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #39 on: March 14, 2011, 12:11:50 pm »

what has me worried is we are going to end up with a generation that wont take a risk.
just think what would the world be like with no risk takers.
Empty for 1 because mankind would have died out very quickly if no one had taken the risk of killing for food, playing with fire, sailing around the world to prove its not flat etc.
where does it leave us for the future?
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dreadnought72

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #40 on: March 14, 2011, 12:40:24 pm »

what has me worried is we are going to end up with a generation that wont take a risk.

I think this is a very valid point. Thirty-five years ago I was eager to go to secondary school since they ran a sailing club. My years, up to the end of my A-levels, were focussed during the summers on sailing and racing dinghies. The winters on prepping the boats for the next year. A real risk of injury and potential drowning for one; power tools, varnish and paint fumes, the other. I loved it - the responsibility of being given a boat and a crew to look after, when just in my teens, coupled with the excitement of sailing and racing against my peers.  :-))

We had H&S, of course - basic training, life jackets and a rescue boat (oar powered!). But it wasn't anything like as strict a process as it would regretably be today. I've no doubt that the paperwork required these days - release forms, risk assessment forms, disclosure forms, accident report forms - would put many schools off even bothering, which would be a real loss to both teachers and children in terms of the experience and fun they could gain.

Andy
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Dekan

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #41 on: March 14, 2011, 05:38:11 pm »

Unfortunately too may of our emergency services seem to be staffed with senior officers who just want to cling on to their jobs "without rocking the boat" until they can claim the pensions...We all ready know from the 7/7 inquiry that the H&S guidelines/laws have caused major loss of life 

What we need is a change in culture at the top...We need Senior Police, Fire Service and other emergency service leaders tell the gutless rubbish that govern this country, that you have to take risks in order to save lives...

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Bryan Young

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #42 on: March 14, 2011, 07:14:06 pm »

Although I agree with most of whats been posted here, there are some other points to ponder.
For a start...don't go off the deep-end when politicising newspapers. Whether you agree with them or not....you'd be in a fine and ignorant state without them.
Secondly, you can't just blame any one political party for the rise and rise of the H@S lobby. There was little or no reaction from anybody (you, me or the politicians) as it was an insiduous "creep" into our society....and we all woke up too late.
During my "working life" the RFA appointed a Ch.Engineer in charge of "Safety" (no mention of Health) way back in the early 1980s.
Quite sensible, and a good idea (we thought). But then "Empire Building" came into the equation, and the whole concept became more and more intrusive. I imagine that the same progression pertained within local councils and central Government. Then the idea of being a "Health and Safety" expert must have seemed to be a good wheeze for some otherwise unemployables. And so, like Topsy, it just "growed and growed". And the Human Rights Acts as interpreted by our civil service and judiciary really just compounded the whole thing.
How to stop it? I don't know, but asking one beaurocrat to sack another these days seems to be an impossibility. Perhaps the French did get it more or less right with their Tumbrills and Guillotines! BY.
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DavieTait

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #43 on: March 14, 2011, 08:27:59 pm »

Yet another H&SE persecution..

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-12737728

Stunt expert cleared in Batman cameraman death trial

An Oscar-winning special effects expert has been cleared of health and safety breaches over the death of a cameraman during filming of the last Batman film.

Christopher Corbould, 53, had denied failing to ensure the safety of Conway Wickliffe, 41, who died during a test run for an action sequence.

The father-of-two suffered severe head injuries and died at the scene in Chertsey, Surrey.

The accident happened during filming of Batman: The Dark Knight in 2007.

Mr Corbould, 53, had denied failing to ensure Mr Wickliffe's safety during filming for the movie starring the late Heath Ledger.

Guildford Crown Court was heard Mr Wickliffe was leaning out of a car when the vehicle failed to negotiate a bend and hit a tree.

An inquest hearing in Woking, in November 2008, ruled his death was an accident.

Mr Corbould, of Woodlands Road, Bookham, Surrey, won an Academy Award at this year's Oscars for his work on the film, Inception.

Jurors were told Mr Corbould, who has almost 40 years' experience in special effects, was in charge of the Batman crew as they filmed the second part of an action scene, which they had started in Chicago.

Three rehearsal runs were carried out without incident but when they did their first test shot "something went dreadfully wrong".

The 4x4, travelling at about 20mph, failed to make the necessary left turn.

Mr Wickliffe, who did not have his seatbelt on, had his head hanging out of the open window and it was crushed between the tree and the car.

Mr Corbould, who said he was devastated by his colleague's death, said everyone had been briefed on what they should be doing during the stunt.

He said Mr Wickliffe had a duty of care to himself, which included wearing a seatbelt.

'Misguided prosection'

After his death, Mr Corbould was arrested on suspicion of manslaughter but police decided to take no further action and the incident was then taken up by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).

Outside the court, solicitor Chris Humphreys said Mr Corbould and his family were tremendously happy with the verdict.

"We always thought from the beginning that this was an ill-conceived and misguided prosecution by the HSE," he said.
Heath Ledger Heath Ledger, who died of an accidental drugs overdose in 2008, played The Joker in the movie

"The police decided within two weeks of this tragic accident that there was no-one to blame and it was a tragic accident.

"World-class actors do not put their livelihoods and wellbeing in the hands of people that don't put their health and safety first.

"Directors and producers do not entrust that kind of money to someone that doesn't put safety first."

The HSE said it took the decision to prosecute Mr Corbould following a thorough investigation to determine the exact circumstances surrounding Mr Wickliffe's death.

"It would be inappropriate for us to comment on the verdict, that is properly a matter for the court," said a spokesman.

Heath Ledger, 28, who played The Joker in Batman: The Dark Night, died of an accidental drugs overdose the following January.

The film's closing credits carried a dedication "in memory of our friends Heath Ledger and Conway Wickliffe".


The HSE said it took the decision to prosecute Mr Corbould following a thorough investigation to determine the exact circumstances surrounding Mr Wickliffe's death.

No the proper way to examine the full circumstances is an inquest or fatal accident enquiry NOT a persecution/prosecution wasting hundreds and hundreds of thousands of pounds of OUR money just because the little tin-pot dictators in H&SE demand they "have their own way"

Time to scrap the H&SE start again making damn sure everyone knows that first and foremost YOU are responsible for your own actions and to use some COMMON SENSE !!!  <*< <*< <*< <*< <*<
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kinmel

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #44 on: March 14, 2011, 08:31:48 pm »

Unfortunately too may of our emergency services seem to be staffed with senior officers who just want to cling on to their jobs "without rocking the boat" until they can claim the pensions...We all ready know from the 7/7 inquiry that the H&S guidelines/laws have caused major loss of life  

What we need is a change in culture at the top...We need Senior Police, Fire Service and other emergency service leaders tell the gutless rubbish that govern this country, that you have to take risks in order to save lives...

Oh, but they did and they continue to do so.

It is not for career professionals to dictate the Laws of the U.K., they must abide by them and wait for the politicians to make the policy changes necessary.

Hampshire Fire Service's Incident Report puts a different perspective to the the Mail's story.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #45 on: March 14, 2011, 08:34:37 pm »

An example of H&S and PC gone mad,

At a University xyz in Australia their H&S officer is a compulsive smoker, who smokes on the job.

His duties also include implementing and enforcing the University's no smoking programme.

When challenged the University's PC response was his smoking doesn't affect his ability to do his duties. <:( <:(

Excellent instances of leading by example and don't do as i do but do as i say. :(( :((

The current generation is lost.
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class37

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #46 on: March 14, 2011, 08:48:13 pm »

"Hampshire Fire Service's Incident Report puts a different perspective to the the Mail's story."


I was always trained that the only person who could certify a person as dead was a doctor, and that until that time efforts to resucitate / treat should continue.

also, how do you ascertain that someone in a lake is sadly not alive [ie dead] without going near him ?

sorry, but this does not change anything as far as I am concerned.

ps how do you 'quote'?
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #47 on: March 14, 2011, 08:55:25 pm »

"Hampshire Fire Service's Incident Report puts a different perspective to the the Mail's story."


I was always trained that the only person who could certify a person as dead was a doctor, and that until that time efforts to resucitate / treat should continue.

also, how do you ascertain that someone in a lake is sadly not alive [ie dead] without going near him ?

sorry, but this does not change anything as far as I am concerned.

ps how do you 'quote'?

Correct,  :-)) :-)) :-))

 The report  :(( :(( only reflects one point in time not that he could not have been saved by those first on the scene,  O0 O0 O0 the thrust of this thread.
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Lord Bungle

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #48 on: March 14, 2011, 09:55:50 pm »

I was always trained that the only person who could certify a person as dead was a doctor,
Had a similar response many moons ago when I was a bus driver, I called up on a code red to centercom (London transports center of communication ) saying that the A3 was blocked due to a fatal accident, the response was a sarcastic "Oh we have a train doctor driving a bus do we?" I had to point out that when you see a motorcycle hit the back of an artic some 6 foot from you and the crash helmet still containing the head bounces of the windscreen of the bus you are driving, it normally means its fatal. I then got reported for swearing on the airwaves after I may have questioned the operators parentage and mental capabilities
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nemesis

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Re: Health and Safety Gone Mad as Man Dies in Boating Lake
« Reply #49 on: March 14, 2011, 10:03:09 pm »

Hello, Our lake has sloping sides and I have forgotten the number of pushchairs including the infant that has gone into the water, did we think of what to do, did we H**L, in we went and rescued the child. The parents/grandparents were in a worse state than the child.
The other day a fellow member collapsed with a suspected heart attack, there we were doing CPR until the paramedics turned up. Did we stand and stare, no, we tried our dammest to help this member, I am sorry to say to no avail, I agree with the majority of the postings about H & S.  Nemesis
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