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[dodgy geezer]

ps how do you 'quote'?

You reply by clicking the 'quote' box on the top right of the item you want to include in the quote....

[class37]

DER !

thanks for that, I was copy / paste and then trying to work out how to do it.

[yorkiej]

"Hampshire Fire Service's Incident Report puts a different perspective to the the Mail's story."


The different perspective in their 'Incident Report' is more than likely what is well known as 'The Mandy Rice Davis Defence', given when Mandy Rice Davies was questioned in Court as to what Lord Profumo had said on oath about his involvement with Christine Keeler.
She replied "Well he would say that wouldn't he". 
The Fire Service report would be, I suggest, carefully written so hopefully no Senior Officer would be held responsible in a prosecution.
It is very sad that the Emergency Services have to run this defence these days and I must say if any of us needs rescuing, please let the first on the scene be from the 'Old School of get the job done ans answer questions later' Brigade.
Watching the horrendous destruction and loss of life in Japan on the Television, I couldn't help but wonder how on earth some HSE Official from the UK would manage to progress with his 'Rescue Risk Assessment' if something like that happened here.
If I was 30 years younger, I would be out of the UK like a shot from a gun.
Cheers
John   
   

[yorkiej]

Sorry chaps, my 'Quote' System seems to have gone awry somehow.
Still the Post is there even though it appears as a Quote.
Must try harder !!!!!!!!!!
John

[RaaArtyGunner]

Sorry chaps, my 'Quote' System seems to have gone awry somehow.
Still the Post is there even though it appears as a Quote.
Must try harder !!!!!!!!!!
John

Make sure you hit enter until your cursor is after and below the word quote in brackets  as here,  [/quote]   and then start typing your reply.

[Yarpie]

It has been announced today that Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service has despatched a team to help in the aftermath of the Japanese earthquake and Tsunami.

Whilst holding out some hope for the victims of the earthquake, I would hope that Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service leave it to more responsible officers regarding victims floating in more than two feet of water in what may resemble boating lakes.

It just seems a dreadful, dreadful irony.

[yorkiej]

Make sure you hit enter until your cursor is after and below the word quote in brackets  as here,     and then start typing your reply.

Many thanks for the advice.
I shall blame it on the drink taken prior to my feeble effort !!!!!

[RaaArtyGunner]

Many thanks for the advice.
I shall blame it on the drink taken prior to my feeble effort !!!!!

Go get em   

[Double D]

See........you can teach an old dog new tricks

[MikeK]

That is the smaller lake used by my club and the scene of the tragic accident is no more than twenty yards from the club house. That morning the club along with the Council had been clearing weed from the main lake and must have finished and gone home less than an hour before it happened. Had some members still been around with their knowledge of that lake's bottom I'm sure the outcome would have been different............a sad case of 'If only.......'
I'm sure I can speak on behalf of my fellow club members in sending our sincere condolences to his family and loved ones. R.I.P

MikeK

[dodgy geezer]

It has been announced today that Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service has despatched a team to help in the aftermath of the Japanese earthquake and Tsunami.

Whilst holding out some hope for the victims of the earthquake, I would hope that Hampshire Fire and Rescue Service leave it to more responsible officers regarding victims floating in more than two feet of water in what may resemble boating lakes.

It just seems a dreadful, dreadful irony.

It looks like Health and Safety have struck again. It appears that a British rescue team has had to be withdrawn because the British Embassy have said that they would be legally responsible for any problems which might arise during rescue work, and they couldn't take that risk....  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12756366

It's now beyond irony....

 

[pugwash]

Looking at the article it would appear this is a different organisation to the official rescue teams supplied by the fire service -
they are up and running and working with American rescue teams.

Geoff

[Yarpie]

Hampshire Fire and Rescue defended the decision of one of their officers in the local paper last night. They (HF&R) maintained that the decision was correct.

However, I (and many other respondents to the local paper) cannot understand how a fire officer (of whatever rank or calibre) can officially pronounce a casualty 'dead' from a distance of 25 metres. As a previous contributer to this thread has already mentioned, this surely can only be carried out by a qualified person, such as a doctor, who has to have immediate access to the casualty.

Our boat club (just over the water from Gosport) will seriously have to reconsider our Health and Safety risk assessments in the light of what we thought was the availability of any type of rescue service or arrangement.

I suppose we have now to ask ourselvelves the question:

WHO TAKES CARE OF THE CARETAKER?  

[deadbeat]

I'm also following this story as it's local. It is obvious you cannot count on the emergency services to save you or your family any more, so do we really need them? They will have to do a lot to gain my respect again. To those on site at the pond side watching the assumed corpse floating the word 'chicken' comes to mind. What would they have done if it was their own father floating face down would they have gone in then? I wouldn't expect them to enter a raging river, but come on this is a shallow boating lake!

It is obvious that this is more than just health and safety it's to do with possible litigation issues, and senior management take the easy way out, they are paid well to make difficult decisions to preserve life (they didnt know he was dead) so they renage on their duty to the public and instead cover their backsides - what wimps!

[essex2visuvesi]

There is talk of this over in Finland and general concencus of opinion here is that the Emergency services should face criminal negligence charges.  They could not prove as some have already said the person was dead so attempts should be made to save life and by not doing so the are criminally negligent

[dodgy geezer]

It is obvious that this is more than just health and safety it's to do with possible litigation issues...

Deadbeat is right.

Ever since we have moved to the American system of allowing lawyers to offer 'no win - no fee' services there has been an exponential rise in speculative legal cases. Nowadays insurance companies will sell your details on to solicitors firms if you have an accident, and they will then try to extract every penny possible from the incident. Just google 'road traffic accident' and you will find pages of solicitors sites anxious to blame someone and take the profit.

 I note that the police are now calling road traffic accidents "road traffic collisions", because, they say, there is no such thing as an accident, there is always someone at fault. The lawyers must be laughing all the way to the bank....

[Tutssy]

I can see this debate going on for some time & quite possibly getting heated into the bargain.  Understandably so!

This world has gone mad.  As I understand it, the emergency services are there to help - in an emergency.  It's what they are supposed to do.  We see it in the movies when they 'put their lives on the line'.  Trouble is we start to believe it too.

Health & Safety is not necessarily a bad thing but, in the case of this poor man in the lake, it screams volumes.  I hope those responsible have a guilty conscience for a very long time & perform much better in future.

I feel like crying.

Condolenses to the family & friends.


DG - My dad always says that there is no such thing as an accident, they are INCIDENTS.  On the road there is always someone at fault.  Either by driving too fast, too slow, poor maintenance etc.  But I do not agree with people getting rich from others misery.


Al

[dodgy geezer]

DG - My dad always says that there is no such thing as an accident, they are INCIDENTS. 

That's a very good saying when it is used to help keep people alert and aware. But it has now been twisted by the lawyers. You will hear it on the TV constantly - 'Where there's blame, there's a claim!'

[Yarpie]

......................Health & Safety is not necessarily a bad thing but, in the case of this poor man in the lake, it screams volumes...................
Al

Quite true Al.

Robens wrote his report in 1974 in an attempt to draw attention to risks, primarily in the workplace.

Health and safety recommendations are not law, but rather placed in law by a plethora of regulations and Acts.

It is the INTERPRETATION (by individuals) of those Acts and Regulations that puts us in the position that we are today. (Or MISINTERPRETATION as the case may be).

And, by what I read in the local Portsmouth paper tonight, the Paramedics involved do not agree with the decision made by the fire officer at the scene, and were still rendering CPR in the ambulance on the way to hospital.

Somebody even commented in the 'letters' section that Hampshire Fire and Rescue teams could safely assist in Japan now as the tsunami waters were only ankle deep.

Sadly these firefighters (brave people all) have created their own stigma via an ill-considered response from a leader.

[kinmel]

It seems that many people here cannot get into the mindset of the H&S Executive and continue to see it as a fire service problem.

In our world people often get into life threatening situations from which they cannot escape without help.

The H&SE consider the consider the priority at such incidents to be avoiding all danger to would be rescuers, professional or not, and they use their powers to enforce their view.

Fire Service officers ARE being prosecuted for doing exactly what you and I believe to be proper and some loose their careers.  If a rescuer had been trapped in the weeds at that lake, the H&SE would have prosecuted.

When I used to arrive at a house fire with people trapped inside, my crew got on with the rescues without real guidance, as we got out of the cab I may shout "hose reel" or "Main jet" and nothing more.  Now H&SE expect the crew to remain seated in the fire engine whilst the officer does his risk assessment and then climbs back aboard and carefully briefs each firefighter in detail. Not forgetting of course to remind them fire may be hot. Then the crew can each do the job they were tasked for. Nothing else.

If that process is not followed and someone is injured, then you as the officer are in real trouble and you will not be saved just because the big Chiefs are on your side.

It is known to be a nonsense and will continue to be a nonsense until someone calls off the dogs.

The strangest thing is that now firefighters are not allowed to use all their skills and equipment as they see fit, more firefighters are being injured than ever before as they try to cope with these limitations.

There will be plenty more of these "coward" stories in the future.

[ben hall]

I can't reply to the post Audie as I would be banned from Mayhem for my comments 

Ned

i fell the same way

this is ridicules the police and rescue services are paid to save lifes not to stand there watching people die

[Tutssy]

kinmel:  I appreciate what you are saying there.  Sounds as if you are someone who knows.

'If a rescuer had been trapped in the weeds at that lake, the H&SE would have prosecuted.'  How or why?  If that was the case I think there would have been an uproar!

&

'more firefighters are being injured than ever before as they try to cope with these limitations.'

Seems to me it's about time the bureaucrats were thrown out on their ears.  That way, maybe the emergency services could get on and do their job properly without fear of repercussions & reprisals.  Not only that but, think of the money that could be well spent elsewhere on improving equipment.

In addition, personally, I do not think it is a case of cowardice.  It's red tape in the extreme.  That being the case, maybe there should be a sign by the lake saying 'Anyone entering the water does so at their own risk'.  Works in car parks.



Going to have to leave it there else my health is going to suffer.  Later guys.

Al

[RaaArtyGunner]

The bottom line at least here in OZ, where we have the same ridiculous stupid risk assessment, simply put, is do not try unless you can be 120% successful.

It is all to do with money. Regretably those in power who make these decisions lose sight of the fact that the taxpayer is not in accord with their actions, after all they know what is best for you thats why you put them there?????????????????????????????????????????????

Commentators are correct in saying lawyers are suing and making money out of peoples misfortunes, but there are accidents, if they are not accidents then they must be intentional. That is not to say that there are not contributory influences by either party to an accident. The PC police have got in here as well.

The seat warmers are paid big bucks, not to run the respective Taxpayer funded service such as police, fire, etc, effectively for the publics welfare and benefit but to minimise litigation.

[kinmel]

We may be making some progress on doing nothing.

 Lord Young has published his report on Health & Safety and recommends :-


"Police and fire services

Police officers and firefighters should not be at risk of investigation or prosecution under health and safety legislation when engaged in the course of their duties if they have put themselves at risk as a result of committing a heroic act.The HSE, Association of Chief Police Officers and Crown Prosecution Service should consider further guidance to put this into effect."

You never know, common sense might win in the end.

[omra85]

Kinmel, thanks for posting the link to Lord Young's report.  It makes very interesting reading and contains a great deal of common sense.
It may also be useful to model boat clubs as it incorporates references to voluntary bodies.
Although health and safety considerations are important in achieving reductions in ANY type of injury, I am in total agreement that these should be managed on a "considered risk" basis rather than the current "eliminated risk" scenario, where a model on the landing stage can be thought of as a "tripping hazard"!
Well done Lord Young - now lets see if anyone else takes notice....

Danny
(no - its not "our Bryan" elevated to the peerage)