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Author Topic: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"  (Read 24713 times)

Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2011, 09:29:32 pm »

Right, OK. So if I attach the bag-ropes (loosely) to the gallows ....to allow for the net swing...I should be about right? What's the other end attached to? I'm sorry if I seem to be a bit slow witted here, but your photos have totally changed my perception of "how things were done" back then. Back to square one on the learning curve, I guess. I'm reasonably comfortable with the "hardware" side of things, but the ad-hoc bits of rigging (and some of the reasons for it) still leaves me a bit more than bemused.
I'd really like to get this "Bayflower" re-build as close as possible to the working environment as possible. In the space of one afternoon you've already given me more points to ponder than I had when I first built her! That also gives me a bit more impetus to get it right this time around. Thank you.
I must however, go along with Kiwi, and ask if you'd at least consider doing the odd short article on specific (and obscure) aspects of trawling. It may seem to be simple to you....but not to the rest of us.
When I did my "bit" on submarine cable repair work I was quite surprised that what seemed second nature to me was literally a closed book to those who read it. And the responses were very gratifying. A similar thing from the point of view of a trawlerman would be just as interesting as anything I could write. Regards. Bryan Young.
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DavieTait

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2011, 10:24:12 pm »

We had a steel ring attached to one of the stringers on the rail that the bag rope was attached to the bigger boats had the same but on some boats the ring was attached to the deck at the base of the rail.

There has to be a little slack in the bag rope but not too much Bryan too much slack and the bag would come aboard too far and too fast which would be dangerous. Some boats had 2 bag ropes some 3.

Your other question about the pond boards has a few different answers. On some boats there was a line of pond boards parallel to the rail set about 2ft inboard down the length of the ponds ( this was to allow for the net to sit there without being in amongst the fish ) , others simply had the pond boards go right out to the rail to maximise the amount of fish they could take onboard. It all depended on the preferences of the skipper.
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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2011, 10:27:51 pm »




That shows how the bag rope was attached to the rail on the 118ft trawler Forward Pride A367 ( my Grandfathers last big boat )
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2011, 06:07:35 pm »

Ah. Right. OK. In my ignorance I thought that the thingy you call "the rail" was just a place to tie the nets to when they weren't being used! I feel like I'm back in an infant school now. Thank you (through gritted teeth!) Bryan.
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DavieTait

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2011, 07:22:45 pm »

The rail is just the side of the boat to a fisherman Bryan the bit between the deck and upwards lol , The photo above shows the pond boards on the Forward Pride showing the parallel pond boards to the starboard rail leaving the gap for the net to lie in
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2011, 08:12:52 pm »

Dear heavens. In a way, I wish i'd never asked! But I'll get there....someday,somehow. And when I do, please feel free to do a bit of constructive criticism that will make me feel like the ignoramous that I undoubtably am.......as least as far as trawlers are concerned. BY.
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nhp651

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2011, 08:43:46 pm »

hi bryan....have a look at the bag ropes on my model of the old steam trawl;er red Falcon.this shows their possitioning.
neil.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2011, 10:17:44 pm »

Neil. Thank you. When I first clicked on to your post I did wonder if somehow you'd got hold of some of my pics! I shall peruse them more closely later. Thanks again for your interest. Bryan.
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nhp651

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2011, 11:07:23 pm »

yes, they are similar bryan.think bayflower was built by COOK WELTON AND GEMMELL, of Beverley, as was the Red Falcon.
they had distinctive lines, as did those from Cochranes ofHull, and yet you could tell them apart when put together....i always prefared the CWG ships as they had nicer lines.

my Red Falcon was a larger ship though at 164.4 ft LBP, and 172ft LOA

NEIL
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nhp651

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #34 on: May 01, 2011, 11:11:29 pm »

As for interest   Bryan........no problems, lifeboats are my love....trawlers are my passion, but don't tell my good lady, lol %% %%
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2011, 06:09:13 pm »

Neil, i've been perusing your pics etc for a few days now. Doing the "compare" bit, I can see some obvious differences (main one being the derrick on the foremast, radar and so on). A major difference would seem to be the diameter of your balls. Yours look huge compared to mine. At least 3 times the flotation capacity.
I built Bayflower at 1:32 scale, which comes out at 55" x 9.5". But yours being a good 20ft longer, what scale did you build at?
To get "Bayflower" to her marks puts the AUW at close to 56lb.
Quite often I curse the 161kb limit on photo postings! To look at details is almost impossible due to pixilation.
But, another stupid question coming up.
In my other life in the RFA we very often had a need to use what the bosun (and his lads) referred to as a "fish tackle". But on my builders drawings the things I "thought" were fish tackles prove to be simple iron 2 sheave blocks. Or were they a form of "snatch block"?
Regards and thanks for energising the little grey cells! Bryan.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2011, 07:02:14 pm »

After that post I felt sure I'd be moderated or something! But on with the project.
Once or twice in the past, I've been asked what shade of "brown" I used. It was only a couple of days ago when I had to buy a tinlet of Humbol that I realised that I hadn't a clue what colour I'd originally used. Another age thing I suppose! So, at vast expense and damage to the pension, I bought three tins that looked the closest. Guess what. It wasn't a "brown" at all.....it was pure and simple "rust". Ho-hum. I don't know what other modellers use that colour for, but it looks absolutely perfect on an old trawler! BY.
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nhp651

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2011, 08:42:23 pm »

Neil, i've been perusing your pics etc for a few days now. Doing the "compare" bit, I can see some obvious differences (main one being the derrick on the foremast, radar and so on). A major difference would seem to be the diameter of your balls. Yours look huge compared to mine. At least 3 times the flotation capacity.
I built Bayflower at 1:32 scale, which comes out at 55" x 9.5". But yours being a good 20ft longer, what scale did you build at?
To get "Bayflower" to her marks puts the AUW at close to 56lb.
Quite often I curse the 161kb limit on photo postings! To look at details is almost impossible due to pixilation.
But, another stupid question coming up.
In my other life in the RFA we very often had a need to use what the bosun (and his lads) referred to as a "fish tackle". But on my builders drawings the things I "thought" were fish tackles prove to be simple iron 2 sheave blocks. Or were they a form of "snatch block"?
Regards and thanks for energising the little grey cells! Bryan.

hi bryan........mine is 1'32, same as yours but i built her on a much modified and altered mountfleet models St Nectan kit.....she is 68" long.

those grey "bobbins" were not floats, but the ground rope steel roller weights. you can just make out the floats for the header ropes behind the bobbins.
i used to load all this gear onto the trawlers in fleetwood docks as a summer job for Cosalt, and the bobbins came in different diameters ranging from 18 - 28 inches, and the fleetwood trawler skippers would always have larger bobbins on the outer ends of the ground ropes and smaller dia's on the inner length..don't know why, they just did.
as for tackle, there is a great deal of stuff on an old steam trawler, and without you pinpointing what you mean i can't really tie it down.
neil.
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nhp651

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2011, 08:50:06 pm »

if you want some more detailed shots of her bryan, just pm me your email address and i'll send some..they are general shots but show quite a bit of extra detailing to what the kit had.
neil.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2011, 01:51:17 pm »

Neil. Thanks again. My e-mail address is under the profile button on my posts. Bryan.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 06:43:58 pm »

Having just made the very juvenile error of spraying the enamel painted mast with acrylic (must be another age thing), and put that right, my thoughts have now strayed towards the rigging. Before the (very welcome) posts of Neil and Davie I included a schematic of the foremast. Seems an age ago!
Since the first incarnation of this model I’ve totally changed the way I do the rigging…especially models that have ratlines and “deadeyes” (rather than bottle screws)….which seems to be a fair percentage of them. The major change is making the standing rigging (shrouds and stays) from hard-drawn brass wire rather than wound flexible stuff. Two reasons. One is that the solid wire is pretty tough and when knocked will spring back to its original “straightness”. The second is that it doesn’t get bowed inwards so easily when fitting the ratlines. So the shrouds on “Bayflower” are going to be replaced with 0.045”dia wire. Fairly heavy stuff and (for me, anyway) difficult to form small eyes into the ends. Especially if the finished length is either too short or too long. So following the less wasteful method I used when re-building “Norseman” I’m using short lengths of aluminium tubing sort of disguised as the splices with thinner wire slotted into the “bendy” end (the eyes). Obviously the “fat” wire won’t fit into the small dia alloy tube that’s a nice fit for the smaller wire. A couple of minutes with a normal sanding disc on the drill soon shaves enough metal off to be a similar snug fit into the tubing. I hope the pics show this even though they are just “mock-ups” to show the system works.
“Deadeyes” used to be a totally closed book. For the life of me I couldn’t work out how they were rigged until I discovered that one end was just a knot, and not a length fastened to anything.
Originally I bought a pack of wood deadeyes but for some reason or another they didn’t have a groove around the perimeter. So I had to make them myself out of brass rod. Another learning curve!
Looking at Neils pics (that he kindly sent to me) of the dead-eyes on his similar model I noted that the dead-eyes were “triple” and not just in pairs like “Bayflower”…I wonder why?
Be that as it may, at the moment I’m still working on the mast itself, but the standing rigging has to be next. But I hope that this post might make “things” a little clearer to those who, like me, struggled with “deadeyes”. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #41 on: May 11, 2011, 05:31:38 pm »

The Trawl Winch.
I must admit to getting more than a bit fed-up with this ruddy mast. I’d much prefer to be sitting in my deck chair reading a good book. At least I would be if only the weather would settle down. Brilliant sunshine for 10 minutes followed by 10 minutes of big black clouds. And, of course, the instant drop in temperature brings on a chasing wind. Can’t win.
    I suppose it was inevitable that the re-built gallows would make the permanent gallows stays slightly out of kilter….especially the two that fasten to the mast. My “solution” to that problem won’t be approved by the fishing fraternity amongst us…but it’s the best I can come up with. This is the point at which I lost patience with the thing and thought it best to move on to something a bit easier. The trawl winch. When I first built “Bayflower” I doubt if this Mayhem site existed, but I wouldn’t really know as I didn’t have a computer to squander so much time on! The point there being that I have no photos of the process of building the winch. When I started it I really hadn’t a clue about it. I knew it was big from grainy pictures I’d seen. I could also surmise that the primary drive gear wasn’t all that much different to any other steam winch. But I still don’t really know if the 2 main wire barrels are permanently linked together or if they can be operated independently. Not that it matters all that much as the drivers side of the thing is hidden under the bridge overhang. What I did pick up on though was that the trawl wires were directed on to the 2 barrels between 2 (4 actually, 2 for each wire) moving rollers. This will prevent the trawl wires just finishing up in a tangled heap on the barrels. Long lost memories of my cadet days came flooding back. When a cargo runner wire gets trapped in an overlying layer of wire there’s a good chance that it will kink and cause all sorts of problems..not least being the odd broken “jaggie” that can put a nasty rip into an unwary hand. Life could have been so much easier if all winches had these geared travelling roller guides. Would have saved the owners a fair amount as well. Steel wire doesn’t come cheap.
     Anyway. Without very much in the way of details to refer to I just went ahead with bits of plasticard for the basic structure (based on a sort of amended cargo winch design). Years later when I was building her replacement (to be called “James Cullen) firms like Caldercraft etc. were producing pretty good fittings for their models…including a trawl winch. Wrong scale for me, but “my” model shop was quite happy for me to borrow one of these things and hopefully give me a bit more of an insight in their workings. You may be able to imagine my pleasant surprise at finding that I’d been largely correct in all my original assumptions. So this rebuilt “Bayflower” has the original winch. Cleaned up and repainted, but that’s all. The “Cullen” winch is naturally the better one, but not by much.
The winch as shown in the posted photos is 5” long, 1.75” high and 2.75” wide.
The base is 2 pieces of 1/16” “Perspex” (actually “Glodex” as used in secondary double glazing, and just picked out of a skip). The top layer being slightly smaller than the bottom one. The whole thing being screwed to the deck.
     As far as the actual “wire” is concerned…..well I suppose that many “craft” shops sell suitable stuff, but I found that our local “Singer” (as in sewing machines) shop sells various grades of “thread” including a rather thick steel coloured one which was ideal for what I wanted. Man-made fibre, and when run over a block of beeswax is more or less proof against anything. Where do you get beeswax these days? I haven’t a clue. I’ve had mine since the early 1960s.



 

 

 

 

 
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #42 on: May 27, 2011, 02:19:56 pm »

Sorry for the delay....but "other" aspects of life keep being intrusive.
The end of May. More like the end of February today. Sitting indoors trying to do a re-rigging job on “Bayflower” that I don’t really want to do at the moment. But looking at the hull that’s sat in front of me, I got to musing (again). I could well be wrong, but I can’t recall reading about the making and fitting of bilge keels to a model. As with everything in life, there’s always more than one way of doing the job. So if others have used the same method as me then so be it.
   But why do Bilge Keels exist in the first place, what do they actually do?
1.Purpose.
       Bilge keels are intended to resist rolling (Ha-ha…tell that to any Pongo that’s ever crossed the North Sea in an LSL). Their effects are complex, but may be summarised as :-
a.   Direct resistance between the bilge keel and the water has a quite weak effect.
b.   They slightly increase the period of  roll. If that’s really the case then an LSL would roll enough to put the flight deck underwater if they weren’t fitted.
c.   They upset the transverse streamlines of the ships hull and so set up eddy-currents and increase the “wave making resistance.
d.   They increase the water pressure over a large part of the ships hull and this pressure acts in such a direction as to “damp” the rolling.
Any the wiser? To be frank, nor am I. I’d like to be on a ship with “removable” bilge keels so I could see/feel the effects for myself.
Such is the theory.
For material I use aluminium sheet. Thick enough to be reasonably strong but also capable of being cut with a pair of shears.
This task is best done before any “additions” are made to the hull….about the first thing you do to a hull really. On the outside of the hull mark off the ends of the bilge keels and drill 2 small holes as markers.
    Not all bilge keels are fitted completely fore and aft….some follow the hull line giving them a “bend”. Not very important in a model.
    Then, using a jig-saw (or the tool of your choice) with a thin blade, cut a slot into the hull. With a GRP or Vac-formed hull this isn’t a problem. If there are frames in the way then to avoid slicing into them I can only say “be very careful”!
A bit of aluminium strip about 2” wide and cut to length can then be inserted into the slot from the outside of the hull. If it’s a snug fit, leave it in place and turn the hull over. Aiming for something like a 0.5” projection into the hull draw a line on the aluminium using the inside of the hull as a guide. Remove aluminium strip. Cut slots in the ally every half inch or so down to the line. Then bend the ally one by one cut at a time in opposite directions. Tap (gently) with a bracing bit of “stuff” so the ally sort of fits the inside of the hull.
Now draw a line on the ally that’s outside the hull as a guide. Remove strip from hull. Now you can cut the bilge keel to whatever width you wish using the “outside” line as a guide. Chop the ends of your new bilge keels at an angle and refit into the hull. Test for fit.
For permanent fixing I use “hairy filler”, when that’s set I run a line of epoxy down the join on the outside of the hull smoothing it in with a finger..gives a nice smooth and waterproof joint. And that’s it. Takes longer to write than do! BY.

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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #43 on: June 05, 2011, 05:30:19 pm »

Don't give up on me just yet!
In the words of the immortal "Chad" (life's too short to explain who he was), "Wot.No posts ?"....
Even with the domestic upheaval brought about by the arrival of an iPad, and in between bouts of attempting to change my "fish-belly white" to a more pleasing shade of a sort of pinkish redish "tan" colour, I have at last completed the foremast standing rigging.
But it all looks a bit bland on a photo. The use of hard-drawn brass wire (3 sizes of) as opposed to "proper" wire makes a great improvement from both a visual and strength aspect. My only problem was getting the length of the wire correct. Mainly caused by my inability to see precisely. I sort of got over that niggle by fitting false rigging screws (aka "Bottle Screws") and by using black cord at the lower ends as a sort of tensioner. Once made to look "solid" the ends look more or less OK....as far as I can see. This "method" could well infuriate sticklers for accuracy, but when needs must etc....
Not the way I would have done it a few years ago. However, now I'm working on "simple" stuff like "Bag Ropes" and so on (with thanks to Davie Tait and others). When that's done I'll post the photos. Thanks for reading. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2011, 07:35:30 pm »

At long, long last I've managed to sort of complete the bits that make a trawler a trawler. And what a slog it's been. Modelling is supposed to be a relaxing sort of "hobby". "Supposed" to be, being the operative word here. This was anything but relaxing.
Who (or what) was Dan Leno? (he of the trawl buoys). I know of Jay Leno, but I doubt if any of his family have any connection. Could be wrong though, many odd family things come up from the USA.
As the trawl net will be rolled up and stowed inside the stbd. bulwark I reckoned that its actual phyiscal size didn't matter all that much....hence the use of a hairnet. Seems to suffice. (My local lady chemist is getting used to odd-ball requests from me!).
The Otter Boards are of stained spruce with brass bindings.....the "wiggly" bits are heavy brass wire (I should have used copper as it's easier to bend).
The ball "rollers" are just painted foam balls from (I think) a box of Xmas decorations....all the others are plastic beads of one size/shape or another (the longish things are rhe "Bag Ropes"..or will be).
I'm still unsure about how to fasten the Otter Boards to the main towing wires though. BY.
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BarryM

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2011, 07:47:08 pm »

Bryan,

I'm surprised that you remember 'Chad' but not 'Dan Leno'. Given your reputation as an old school stage-door johnnie with a habit of twirling your moustachios at the chorus girls, you must have seen him at the local music hall?

Cheers,

Barry M
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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2011, 09:45:02 pm »

Bryan,

I'm surprised that you remember 'Chad' but not 'Dan Leno'. Given your reputation as an old school stage-door johnnie with a habit of twirling your moustachios at the chorus girls, you must have seen him at the local music hall?

Cheers,

Barry M
Ah! THAT Dan Leno! I had wondered about the spelling of "buoys". But I'm still none the wiser about why these things are named as such....because they only fit one way, perhaps? A more erudite reply would be appreciated.....but at least you read it! BY.
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DavieTait

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2011, 10:18:58 pm »

At long, long last I've managed to sort of complete the bits that make a trawler a trawler. And what a slog it's been. Modelling is supposed to be a relaxing sort of "hobby". "Supposed" to be, being the operative word here. This was anything but relaxing.
Who (or what) was Dan Leno? (he of the trawl buoys). I know of Jay Leno, but I doubt if any of his family have any connection. Could be wrong though, many odd family things come up from the USA.
As the trawl net will be rolled up and stowed inside the stbd. bulwark I reckoned that its actual phyiscal size didn't matter all that much....hence the use of a hairnet. Seems to suffice. (My local lady chemist is getting used to odd-ball requests from me!).
The Otter Boards are of stained spruce with brass bindings.....the "wiggly" bits are heavy brass wire (I should have used copper as it's easier to bend).
The ball "rollers" are just painted foam balls from (I think) a box of Xmas decorations....all the others are plastic beads of one size/shape or another (the longish things are rhe "Bag Ropes"..or will be).
I'm still unsure about how to fasten the Otter Boards to the main towing wires though. BY.


The otter boards were shackled to the warps using large bow shackles Bryan. A boat of this vintage wouldn't have had the net directly onto the boards but used 25 fathom wire sweeps. The back-strops on the otter boards were joined using a shackle onto a short length of wire which had a "kellys-eye" http://www.dantrawl.com/pdf/C/kellyeye.pdf , there was a short wire between the stopper and the angle irons on the front of the trawl board ( the triangular brackets ) which is called a pennant wire , this was unshackled from the warp and tied to the otter board.


If you look at the aft wire you can see the kellys eye with the back-strop hanging from it just above the dan-leno bobbin.

The shackle we used for the boards was pretty large ( 10'' wide bow type ) and on the front of the otter boards the 2 angle irons were already shackled together with a bow shackle with the pin towards the warp , there was a swivel on that shackle then a heavy duty link shackled to that and it is the link that you shackled the main warp onto. I'll have a look through my photo and see if I can find any photos that show this for you Bryan
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BarryM

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2011, 10:24:21 pm »

dan leno = a part of a trawl, the short pole or spreader to which each wing end was attached (probably from a corruption of the French word guindineau).

There also seem to be DL boards, brackets, arms etc etc.

Barry M

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Bryan Young

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Re: Steam Trawler "Bayflower"
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2011, 11:23:36 am »

Barry and Davie, thanks for your most welcome and useful replies. This is all getting to be a lot more complicated than rigging for a RAS! Even with all the help I'm getting I feel sure that I'm going to make some big boo-boos before I'm done. Bryan.
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