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Author Topic: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser  (Read 15662 times)

Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2014, 01:36:55 PM »

Yes quite spooky, but nice to have the reply.
The boat originally had a direct drive (not using the gearbox) 6V hectoperm driving a 2" 3 blade brass prop.
But the 6V motor was being driven at 9V IIRC and I never had it in the water like that as after I acquired it, I gutted it to start the restoration.
Thinking a hectoperm was not the best solution I started looking at alternatives.

I need to remake the propshaft as it's slightly bent causing vibration, and I'd like to use the original prop.
So I just need to get a decent enough motor for it.
Battery technology is not an issue, I can do any voltage or any type. I work with lithium batteries as part of my job and design power electronics.
I have a V.High quality large motor which I was looking at fitting, but i's 48V so I was looking for a more standard solution really.
Jon
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #26 on: May 15, 2014, 07:52:28 PM »

OK, Ive pulled the prop out and found the top bearing was worn, rather than the shaft bent.
So I've made a new brass adapter with a bronze insert, feels much better now.

I'm going to try the original prop again with the original Hectoperm, this time coupled with an Mtronics Marine20 ESC and 7.2V racepack.
Atleast it will give me a reference for RPM and power requirements if nothing else.

I've also just won a new Marx GT300/10 on eBay for £2.20, originally thinking about fitting to the Tarpon, but the more I think, the more I come to the conclusion it's OTT. The GT300/10 is a 19.2V 14K RPM 300W motor, I think I'd better think of a more suitable project for that unless people think it's a go-er in the Tarpon, maybe just under-running it.

Jon
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2014, 10:53:29 PM »

I've done a little more to the tarpon tonight, Removed the deck fittings and hand rails, and sanded the deck down.
Also looking at the winch on the front, with no bow fairlead or roller didnt seem quite right.
I was thinking of putting on a fairlead on the bow, and mounting an anchor to complete the set.
The boat had large bow light when it came to me, but technically this is incorrect as the nav lights are on the cabin roof so wouldnt need more on the bow.
There was no mast light and no stern light, so may have to correct this.



This is the cleaned up winch (less baseplate), and the original bow light that I'm thinking of changing to a bow roller & anchor.



Also a photo showing the now reinstated Hectoperm, and the new top bearing on the propshaft.



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Stavros

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #28 on: May 20, 2014, 11:39:07 PM »

If I can give you one very big piece of advise then it would be this......

redo the motor mount t get that coupling straight......reason being is as follows.....

A straight coupling will cause less drag on the motor and has a knock on effect of using less amps which will have an added bonus of a longer running time.

In your case it is a simple fix of packing up the rear of the motor..... hope this is of help



Dave
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derekwarner

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2014, 03:34:38 AM »

Stavros....... "In your case it is a simple fix of packing up the rear of the motor".... {-) may be OK if the vessel was upside down or in the Southern hemisphere!............. Derek
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #30 on: May 21, 2014, 07:34:56 AM »

Yes, with space like you have available it would be a good idea to straighten up that coupling as Dave says, however I have to say that I see this Decaperm motor as being way too heavy
for the boat in my view and having used Decaperms on one or two boats I suspect that
being a relatively low revving motor your boat may not move that well?
Just a thought.....
N
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radiojoe

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2014, 10:33:32 AM »

Yes I would agree with Stavros there, I always line up motor and shaft as straight as I can so the coupling has little or no work to do, it results in less load on the motor and less vibration, On my 3 foot timber scratch built pilot boat I used a 600 motor and a 2 to 1 reduction belt drive which works very well, originally got quite warm after some fast runs, but cutting three vents in the cabin front and sides with some mesh in them seems to have cured that , You have a beautiful boat there and I like what you have done with her, be nice to see her finished. Joe
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2014, 02:57:17 PM »

Hope you don't mind me posting just a couple of pictures
of my Tarpon for your interest - with a motor I had in mind to use.
N

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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #33 on: May 21, 2014, 02:58:43 PM »

one other pic I missed in case you are interested
N
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #34 on: May 21, 2014, 05:31:08 PM »


If I can give you one very big piece of advise then it would be this......

redo the motor mount t get that coupling straight......reason being is as follows.....

A straight coupling will cause less drag on the motor and has a knock on effect of using less amps which will have an added bonus of a longer running time.

In your case it is a simple fix of packing up the rear of the motor..... hope this is of help

Dave

Yes I perfectly agree Dave, I would normally fit the coupling as straight as possible (see previous custom mounts), although on this test I just slapped it in to see about revs power and WIEGHT.

Yes as Nordlys has also mentioned, my original concern with this setup was the weight and the lack of RPM on the Hectoperm.
I will run it on Sunday as-is, and go from there.
If it looks good, then I'll likely shorten the shaft by 30mm (to shift the weight down and aft), make a shorter brass/rubber UJ, straighten the motor mount, and just run the Hectoperm.
Else...
If this motor/prop is still not an acceptable solution, I had considered a belt/gear (plane style) reduction as suggested by radiojoe, and could use either the Marx 300GT or another high power motor with the reduction drive, which would have to be the solution.
If I have to source another motor, I'll likely go brushless with reduction.

I don't want this to be a superfast speed boat, but go at a fun speed for with a bit in headroom if I need it.
The main issue so far has just been overloading the motors due to large prop direct drive with an undersized motor.
So putting the weight to one side for a moment, assuming the Hectoperm is up to it with the prop/gearbox, it will hopefully be acceptable.

Rgds
Jon
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #35 on: May 21, 2014, 05:41:07 PM »

What I forgot to put in my earlier post to you was the fact that in handling both
motors shown in my pictures, there was little difference in the weight!
The big difference between the two of course is one is low revving the other
much higher.
N.
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #36 on: May 21, 2014, 06:27:56 PM »

Thanks Nordlys,
That's an interesting point, about comparative weights.
I have tried a direct drive 700 size motor in it last year (18V power drill style),
but found that over heated too, maybe a motor quality issue, maybe just the prop couldn't rev enough, but it was not a good combo anyway.
We shall just have to see.
Jon
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #37 on: May 21, 2014, 08:53:11 PM »

Hope you don't mind me posting just a couple of pictures
of my Tarpon for your interest - with a motor I had in mind to use.
N

Thanks for the pics, yes appears to be very similar. Mine is 35" ling 9 1/2" beam.
Is this similar to yours?
Have you had it running with the Decaperm?
What prop have you got on it (about)?

Cheers
Jon
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #38 on: May 21, 2014, 09:04:22 PM »

one other pic I missed in case you are interested
N
Do you have any details on the "Darke Horse" motor tried a quick search but nothing has come up.
Looks a decent motor though, is it a 600 Can size?

Jon
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #39 on: May 21, 2014, 09:58:19 PM »

My Tarpon is unfinished and living in the loft at the moment!
I haven't had it running  at all - I just put the Motors in the hull today to
show you the relative sizes.
I will check out that motor tomorrow and post again but it is larger than a 600
with a larger output shaft - 700 maybe?
Likewise no prop information either but then that shouldn't be a  problem as a couple of
trial runs with one or two different sizes will sort that.
The motor came from Anglia Models but doesn't appear to be available now! Sorry not much help
tonight!
N
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radiojoe

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2014, 10:53:27 PM »

Hi Jon, if it's any help, my pilot boat is a similar size to your Tarpon and running on the 600 motor and belt drive has a 50mm 4 blade brass prop that gives a good realistic speed. Joe
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #41 on: May 22, 2014, 10:42:06 AM »

My Tarpon measures 36" long x 10.5" beam. Very similar size to yours.
The motor I was showing in my photo was from Anglia Model centre
but on enquiry they have none in stock at the moment. Size was 785   6-18v with a 5mm dia shaft.
They do have a 700 Race Graupner 9.6v (£23) but I'm thinking you probably wouldn't need to use
a motor this large for the Tarpon.
A 600 size should be quite adequate - its quite a light weight boat, don't you think?
Hope this is of some help.
N
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #42 on: May 22, 2014, 08:41:50 PM »

I will check out that motor tomorrow and post again but it is larger than a 600
with a larger output shaft - 700 maybe?
...
The motor came from Anglia Models but doesn't appear to be available now! Sorry not much help
tonight!
N

Ive found a catalogue for "Darke Horse" from back in 2009, if it's the standard 700 frame one, then the spec is as follows:
6-18V, 5 Pole, High Torque, 785 Motor.
7,000rpm @ 6V 14,000rpm at 12V, 21,000rpm at 18V

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showatt.php?attachmentid=3609656

I'm sort of hoping the Hectoperm is OK now
From what people have had success with, ~8K rpm (on charged 2S LiPo) and a 45mm 3 blade brass prop, appears to be in the ball park.
We shall find out on Sunday  O0

Regards
Jon
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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2014, 01:31:00 PM »

Well I've tested the Tarpon with the Hectoperm, and it was not too bad.
The bow was a little heavy, but a little more ballast in the aft and moving the motor a little further aft could sort this out.
I feel it could do with a little more RPM though, and the noise of the gearbox is a little too loud for me.
But it was a very informative test.

http://youtu.be/H2r9omQTW6s

The maximum draw was about 5A (~40W),  max revs on the shaft ~ 3000 RPM at 8V
(Looks like the stated RPM of the hectoperm is the ungeared speed, I misunderstood this in a previous post when I said 8K (which would be unladen aswell)

At 550g the hectoperm is hefty, so I think if I can find an alternative solution I may give it a go.

I've re-varnished the deck now, and in the process of repainting all the rails and fittings.
I'll put some photos up in a tic when dropbox gets it's  ;D sorted out.

I'll hopefully get the superstructure undercoated this week.
Need to make the new bowroller/fairlead, and work out exactly how to refit the mast (hole in deck is much larger than the mast)  {:-{
Likley need to make a foot for the mast to angle it back, and make the two sizes compatible.

Jon


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radiojoe

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2014, 01:52:23 PM »

As you said Jon, a bit noisy but the speed looks spot on for the type of craft, she looks very much at home on the water  :-)) .Joe.
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Nordlys

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2014, 03:09:51 PM »

I was about to comment on the 3000 rpm speed being a tad low but
on seeing the video and as Joe said it doesn't look that slow - which
surprises me!
Not my motor of choice and perhaps a little noisy have to admit,
but this is a very nice looking model and certainly runs very well.
I'd be pleased with that!
N

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Jon

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #46 on: May 26, 2014, 09:39:51 PM »

Now my Dropbox appears to be working at more than a snails pace, I can put some links in of the photos...



The mark on the foredeck is just a flash shadow.



Cabin is sanded down, and I've just filled the few pocks/holes in in, so another sand down tomorrow and ready for the primer.



Rgds
Jon
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radiojoe

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #47 on: May 26, 2014, 10:51:25 PM »

She's well on her way to looking like she should you have been busy Jon, nice work :-)). Joe.
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pompebled

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2014, 12:33:48 PM »

Hi Jon,

See if you can get your hands on an 'industrial' motor like this Bόhler:
http://www.rc-point.nl/index.php?item=buhler-6-18-vdc-motor--12v-3030-toeren-1_7a--pakket&action=article&group_id=20000271&aid=69112&lang=nl#.U4m9CyhC1dw

Last year I used 14 of these motors in 140 cm long models and they run all day on a 12V 7Ah battery turning a Ψ55 mm prop.

Regards, Jan.
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pompebled

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Re: My First Rebuild – Vintage Cabin Cruiser
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2014, 01:30:12 PM »

Can't modify my post above, so I'll add it here.

The Bόhler works in direct drive, so you'll have a much quieter boat, I quickly had to dial down the volume, watching your 'floating table saw' rush by...

Regards, Jan.
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