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Author Topic: Let the train take the strain  (Read 4353 times)

tigertiger

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Let the train take the strain
« on: June 24, 2011, 06:44:59 AM »

Comparison between Network Rail's West coast line construction, ticket prices, and service, compared to a developing country.

How long has the West Coast rail line been under consideration, construction etc.?
How far will 100 quid get you on a British train?
How regular are services from London to say Edinburgh?


The new Beijing to Shanghai bullet train service has been launched.

The 1300 KM journey takes about 5.5 hours.
The tickets cost about 55 quid for second class and 120 quid for business class.

Trains depart every 10 minutes during the day.

The 1300kms of high speed track were built in less than 3 years.

The only difference I can think of is that the Chinese system is Nationalised.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2011, 10:58:01 AM »

Comparison between Network Rail's West coast line construction, ticket prices, and service, compared to a developing country.

How long has the West Coast rail line been under consideration, construction etc.?
How far will 100 quid get you on a British train?
How regular are services from London to say Edinburgh?


The new Beijing to Shanghai bullet train service has been launched.

The 1300 KM journey takes about 5.5 hours.
The tickets cost about 55 quid for second class and 120 quid for business class.

Trains depart every 10 minutes during the day.

The 1300kms of high speed track were built in less than 3 years.

The only difference I can think of is that the Chinese system is Nationalised.



I can think of a few other differences. You need to consider prices against cost of living - I would say that UK prices are about twice those quoted, but it may be that the cost of living is half that of the UK? Another point is the time taken to obtain planning permission in the UK - this might be much less in China? Train times London-Edinburgh are about 1 every half-hour, but I assume that they match demand - if the Chinese line has a high demand then every 10 minutes can be justified.

And though most of our trains are 125mph, we have been taking delivery of short-distance commuter trains capable of 140mph since 2009. I wonder if the Chinese bullet train would be able to keep up its average of 145 mph on the London Edinburgh route? Our trains do not run on dedicated flat tracks with no other traffic...

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tigertiger

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2011, 11:08:55 AM »

When I last took the train in the UK it was 110 pounds second class from Bristol to London, the supersaver was 57 pounds.

I agree with you about planning, but that is just part of the problem. The high-speed west coast line was promised for so long that Virgin bought 140mph trains. He then had to sue Network Rail as the promised lines had not materialised.

I also agree that the bullet train could not do its 300kph on the west coast line. Rather like the high speed train from London to Paris cannot get up to speed in UK.

Britain used to be the world's leader. But too much was outsourced and run as cost centres, with the explicit aim of reducing cost. There was also the idea that nothing should be subsidised by government. Errmm! That idea didn't work out either, it is that we are now subsidising the private sector and not the public sector.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2011, 11:29:17 AM »

I think that we have a lot of problems with our infrastructure, but the reasons are a bit more subtle than just lack of engineering capability.

When you are starting to put infrastructure into an organisation, you naturally put the latest equipment in, and design it to fit. It then becomes much harder to put newer stuff in 100 years later. The Chinese (and any other country which is currently introducing new technology) will be able to design flat fast lines and buy new trains. We have to work with what we have got.

As an example, consider Blenheim Palace. It may have been state of the art in 1700, but I bet that modern double-glazing out-performs its old sash windows. And I further bet you would have a lot of difficulty in putting modern double-glazing into it - not least because it is a grade 1 listed building. We could knock it down and put up a modern conference centre there - just like we could rip out all the country's railways and install new fast electrics - but we're not going to....

The main problem we have with infrastructure is that you can either have it government-run (which means inefficiency and no modernisation) or privately run (which means monopoly pricing and no investment for the future unless a profit can be assured). We have not yet managed to solve that conundrum, but at least we are addressing it. The Chinese have that problem yet to come...
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Arrow5

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2011, 11:39:08 AM »

I wonder how quickly the high speed rail networks on the Continent were built. A couple of examples German and Belgian attached. The TGV in France is the leader of course. Any experiences to relate ?
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nhp651

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2011, 12:19:29 PM »

Wait for the BIG BANG!!!! <:( <:( <:( <:( <:(

the 147mph is an average speed, so i presume that she will go much faster.

At 10 minutes apart, if one of them breaks down on the fastest part of the track, and stops..the one following at same speed is less than 25 seconds from disaster..................!!!

don't think i'd fancy travelling on one of those beasteis............NO WAY HOSE'

I'll lay odds on that it would take more than 25 seconds to bring that to full stop from that speed, let alone thinking and acting time........ :o :o :o :o
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dreadnought72

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2011, 01:57:30 PM »

Bad maths there, nhp.

If they set off every ten minutes, then they're ten minutes apart throughout their journey - nearly 25 miles separation at 147mph. Plenty of time to get the others to stop/be re-directed.

Andy
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rmaddock

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2011, 03:59:45 PM »

We go to France quite often, my wife being half that way inclined by birth.

I've often looked at great swathes of brand new TGV line sweeping across the country and wondered how they can do it.  My theory is twofold. One, France is, compared to the UK, large and empty. There are fewer folks there to be annoyed when you want to bulldoze their houses. Two, it's a national psyche thing.  The French are more willing to countenance massive national statements, such as TGV lines, than we are. I don't know if it's always been the same here, but we've got a much more selfish attitude to everything and "national interest" doesn't wash.

Mind you, I don't know which attitude is better.
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funtimefrankie

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #8 on: June 24, 2011, 05:52:38 PM »

It is possible to get train tickets for a couple of pounds, Liverpool to London, if you book in advance with Mega train.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #9 on: June 24, 2011, 06:47:39 PM »


If they set off every ten minutes, then they're ten minutes apart throughout their journey - nearly 25 miles separation at 147mph.



Quite correct




Plenty of time to get the others to stop/be re-directed.



I would like to hope so. But the 10 minutes will probably vary by a few minutes in practice, and it's not a long time to detect a problem, signal all the following trains and bring them to a safe stop...
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #10 on: June 24, 2011, 06:57:29 PM »

Dont't they have buffers.....? %)
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nhp651

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #11 on: June 24, 2011, 07:44:32 PM »

on a fast stretch, for that train to AVERAGE 147mph it would probably be travelling close to 200mph, as does the japanese bullet train.........
bringing one of those to stop from full chat will take at least 4 minutes....you don't have much time to react even if told the "second" that the train in front has broken down and stopped.....again, no way hose'....rather you than me, lol
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Arrow5

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #12 on: June 24, 2011, 08:12:54 PM »

Stopping distance is in the 2 miles region from speed. I believe the signalling will be "in-the-cab", as in airliners with outside control possibly, ie power cut off. Just guessing.  Buffers, how quaint %)  My first job was as cleaner at a loco shed, steam in them days. Saw  number 10,000 and 10,001 the new generation of diesel locomotives visit the Ayr shed on their countrywide tour. <:( <:( <:(
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wartsilaone

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2011, 08:14:48 PM »

Most of these trains have a version of Automatic Train Protection, another British invention or a moving block system where the train behind knows haw fast the train in front is going. If the train in front comes to a stand which would take time the computer on the second train would tell the driver to slow down or even intervene and put the brakes on.

Ali.
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Arrow5

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2011, 08:44:43 PM »

I`m sure that computer control would be a bit more sophisticated and monitor deceleration as well as actual speed to keep the gaps between trains constant and respond instantly. I`m scared to check on Google or Wiki, I`ll be there for hours. Trains without wheels , pah levitation pah,  gimme the old clickety click of the rail joints....whazzat welded ? Well I`ll be danged  :o
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wartsilaone

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #15 on: June 24, 2011, 08:53:50 PM »

Well believe me there is plenty of that clickety clack left in Britain so you're quite safe for now mate :}

Ali.
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Arrow5

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #16 on: June 24, 2011, 09:00:24 PM »

Aye , the Strathspey Steam Railway goes past my window, the shed is 200 yards away.  Wooden sleepers too  O0
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wartsilaone

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #17 on: June 24, 2011, 09:06:53 PM »

A typical day at Norwich(nearly).



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oldiron

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #18 on: June 24, 2011, 09:24:40 PM »

Aye , the Strathspey Steam Railway goes past my window, the shed is 200 yards away.  Wooden sleepers too  O0


Some people live the good life.   :-))

John
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wartsilaone

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2011, 09:28:40 PM »

I still wish it was a bit more like this.

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #20 on: June 24, 2011, 10:19:39 PM »

This is what I fondly remember. Off the paddle steamer at Ryde and onto the Shanklin bound train for another IoW holiday. Happy days.

Colin
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nhp651

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2011, 02:46:54 PM »

This is what I fondly remember. Off the paddle steamer at Ryde and onto the Shanklin bound train for another IoW holiday. Happy days.

Colin

that's more the pace I like to travel at, Colin.

lovely picture.
neil.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #23 on: June 27, 2011, 04:34:11 PM »

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DickyD

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Re: Let the train take the strain
« Reply #24 on: June 27, 2011, 04:52:16 PM »

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