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Author Topic: motor help 6ft boat  (Read 7023 times)

bigred0809

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motor help 6ft boat
« on: June 27, 2011, 10:44:16 pm »

Hello all i am after a bit of advise please on powering my 6ft huntsman, i have never used brushless motors before but it makes sense to me as there efficient and will hope fully give better run times,
as many of you no the huntsman is a heavy old girl even more so at 6ft! it has two props shafts and i was thinking in my head of a two bladed race style prop around 60mm dia, a sea-king 120amp water cooled speed controller and a Turnigy 50-65B 350kv motor per shaft running on a 6s li poly around 5000ma(although would much prefer x2 12v lead acids if i thought they would give the amps) any opinions on motor/prop size or any thing else would much appreciated as this really is just a guess based on reading about some rather fine life boats that seem to go well and are quiet large and heavy!
thanks in advance Luke
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bigred0809

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2011, 07:23:45 pm »

Any one have a opinion on this good or bad?
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2011, 09:11:14 pm »

what weight is it RED181 is running a 42" that weighs 7kg he is using an align one at 1500w and that goes well you should not need double he is using a castell creations 175 amp controller they have been the best up to now any pictures and where are you by the way. lead acid is not to be ruled out on a boat that size

Peter
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AT Boatyard

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2011, 10:15:08 pm »

Hi Luke,You are heading down the right road.
You will have over 2hp per motor.
As for the ESC's a bit over kill you need Seaking 90amp to run upto 6s lipo (22volt )
If you run gel cell or lead acid you are best using Seaking 80amp HV 2x12volt fully charged upto (27volts )
You may get away with two lead acid batterys running on the Seaking 90amp 6s ESC's,but its a lot of money up in smoke if they dont take the volts.
Now this is what i would run.....2x Emax 4030/10..385kv
2xSeaking 80amp HV ESC's.
You will need heavy duty coupling.
Here one i made earlier






running on 12volt  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRKH9_MKfI
running on 24volt  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa5wBkClicI
running on 24volt  http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs

regards
Alan
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AT Boatyard

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 10:25:14 pm »

Hi Luke, i forgot to say the ship is 4.8 meters long a weighs 250kg
Here is alink to the build
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27895.100
and also my website
www.atboatyard.co.uk

If you can weigh the hull i can do some working out for you

kind regards
Alan
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 10:34:15 pm »

Hi Luke, i forgot to say the ship is 4.8 meters long a weighs 250kg
Here is alink to the build
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=27895.100
and also my website
www.atboatyard.co.uk

If you can weigh the hull i can do some working out for you

kind regards
Alan
I think he would want the Huntsman to at least get on the plane, they where a fast sports / RACE boat not a warship.

Peter
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AT Boatyard

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 10:59:40 pm »

Hi Peter,i know if look at the Type 45 it is geared down 4.2:1.
Also RED181 had to gear his boat down as the align turn to fast.
I must say it is a good motor,but a bit pricey.
Have a look at paul lifeboat i thing says it all
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9830.0

Also have a look one of my boats
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRKH9_MKfI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa5wBkClicI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs

king regards
Alan
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nick_75au

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 11:29:23 pm »

Hi Luke,
One thing I noticed in your original post is the use of 2 blade race prop, they are not the best prop, too high pitch and designed for surface drive of which the huntsman is not. Better with a prototypical brass prop from the Raboecsh or similar range.

Cheers
Nick
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 11:30:56 pm »

yes I know red181 boat is geared I MADE IT the gear box that is. he is trying a new motor at the moment another outrunner
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 11:31:47 pm »

Hi Luke,
One thing I noticed in your original post is the use of 2 blade race prop, they are not the best prop, too high pitch and designed for surface drive of which the huntsman is not. Better with a prototypical brass prop from the Raboecsh or similar range.

Cheers
Nick
Paul is using a cleaver from prop shop
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 11:35:30 pm »

Hi Peter,i know if look at the Type 45 it is geared down 4.2:1.
Also RED181 had to gear his boat down as the align turn to fast.
I must say it is a good motor,but a bit pricey.
Have a look at paul lifeboat i thing says it all
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9830.0

Also have a look one of my boats
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRKH9_MKfI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa5wBkClicI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs

king regards
Alan

Yes but that is a jet boat, is that the one that was up for sale recently ?
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red181

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2011, 12:04:03 am »

well my boat has been mentioned, so you might aswell know whats going on, HS93 is up to speed with the build and has commented accurately, just for the record, I am no expert, but have spent over 2 years developing the boat with significant testing, so hopefully this will help, however mine is 42" and weighs with batteries 7kg, single screw.

I started with an align 1620kv which was excellent, direct drive, and various gearbox ratios, to get a balance of speed, run time and efficiency. I tested witn over 15 props, cleavers, steam, 3 and 4 blade, and a selection of cheap "x" props. The best was a 52.5mm 2 blade "x" prop, on 2.5:1 ratio, 22mph, 20 mins running, the brass props where slower and offered no advantage given their price . As brushless technology has come on leaps and bounds in large scale boats over the last 2 years, its apparent that a lower kv motor will produce better efficiency enabling a larger prop, but.... I think going as low as under 400kv will not produce enough speed.

Just testing a cheap turnigy outrunner, 880kv. 2.5:1 ratio was very slow, 11mph, then changed ratio to 1.25:1, and speed now up to 24mph, 2027watts, , wait for it.......107.92 max amps!!, so be carefull with the esc, You cannot have overkill, buy the best you can afford, I have wasted so much money and time buying cheap inferior over stated products from china! The prop that gave best speed was a 48mm 3 blade brass cleaver, the 52.5mm " x" that was fastest on the other setup was now 21mph, and way down the list. Most efficient, and still fast, was a "x" prop 55mm, 23.10mph, acceptable 73.74amps, 1516 watts, so a sacrifice on speed to get a more efficient setup.

batteries are 2 x 5000mah 35c 3 cell lipos, runs to test where very short so batteries didn't go off. Motor was a bit too warm on the brass prop, but cold on the "x" prop. Its so important to use some sort of data logging, I have eagletree data recorder with lcd monitor and gps acquiring average of seven satellites, so the information given is accurate, not just opinion or hearsay

In summary, don't disregard the plastic "x" props, whilst propshop are far superior, when testing, at a quid a go, its far cheaper to get a load of props, and start with small ones gradually getting bigger.

Tomorrow I might be able to comment further, as I now have a 1:1 ratio fitted and will be running the boat :-))   

Hope that helps, wish I knew how to upload the data its very intersting to see all the readings
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bigred0809

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2011, 12:14:47 am »

hello all, thanks alot for your help that gives me alot to work on, i found paul's life boat thread and googled his motors they seem ideal and have just spent the last few hours trawling through giant cods website! the hull is made and am in the process of varnishing the decking so next stage will be the drive line and sea trails before any super structures made, i would love to use sla batteries like you said x2 12v to give 24v but was unsure whether that would supply the amps needed? not after huge run times but 10 Min's at a decent pace would be nice? i way will weigh the boat tomorrow and let you know bit at a guess id say its around 10kg as a bare hull and Ive tried to keep it light as i can. I'll rethink the props then as the race ones sound like they will be pull to many amps if there a very course pitch?
Alan that's a very impressive type 45 i have enjoyed reading your build! did not realize you also made the lifeboat, that YouTube clip has been the start of many a debate on how well it went and how long it lasts with my friend that's also making a 6ft perkasa
i have pictures of the build on my phone but have no idea how to put them on here

cheers Luke
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red181

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2011, 12:24:27 am »

Hi Luke, did you read any of the above post???? The lifeboats are absolutely fantastic, but jetdrive is a completely different ballgame, dont think copying this with conventional prop drive will duplicate those results in speed or endurance
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HS93 (RIP)

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2011, 12:24:53 am »

Hi Peter,i know if look at the Type 45 it is geared down 4.2:1.
Also RED181 had to gear his boat down as the align turn to fast.
I must say it is a good motor,but a bit pricey.
Have a look at paul lifeboat i thing says it all
http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=9830.0

Also have a look one of my boats
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gLRKH9_MKfI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa5wBkClicI
 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs

king regards
Alan
[/quote


and yes lifeboat Paul's boat it good but since 2008 motors have changed dramatically KV's have come down and so has the price
Just out of interest have you run brushless motors in your destroyer yet?

Peter
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bigred0809

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2011, 12:36:10 am »

hello Red181 thanks for your post some very impressive research! makes good reading and interesting to see you have got well over 10 mins run time even with quiet high amps and 5000mah batteries, calculations we have been doing must be well off as we worked it out to last around 6 mins at half the amps your using!must have done something wrong and you cant beat real world testing as you have done, i was going to start with around a 60mm prop and go up from there? what would be a good rpm for a prop of this size? i was aiming for around 10,000rpm and was looking for the right spec motor kv to give me this on direct drive if possible on either 24v or a 6c lipo depending on what i end up using, when i searched for the motors that Paul's lifeboat used i found E-Power BL4020 520KV Brushless Outrunner Motor which seems a better kv for the volts ill be using and hope fully power full enough! gets good reviews on giant cod and cheap enough!
thanks again Luke
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red181

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2011, 12:46:32 am »

Hi Luke, have a look at youtube videos at Fleetwood, a guy called froggie has posted some great videos, there is even a massive huntsman with twin ic engines!, some really good film of seaqueens on giant cod brushless motors.

dont start as big as 60mm, start small and work up, I learnt to my expense, wasted 3 speed controllers by using too big a prop straight off, I was warned, and thought I knew better, on one occassion I blew the capacitors off, great smoke display that also took out a lipo pack.

Tomorrow I will start with "x" 50 graupner balck plastic short pitch, then a longer 50mm pitch, then 52.5mm, then 55mm, short runs, to keep the batteries up, monitioring motor temp, get one of these, very cheap, will measure max amps, and will give real time readings

 http://www.4-max.co.uk/wattmeter-budget.htm

I used one for over 12 months, it was a real help as you can record max amp draw every time you swop a prop :-))

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idProduct=11143

This is the motoor under test now, look at the recommended esc, and thats for a helicopter with far less drag than a boat, although gear ratio is different, these big motors are very amp hungry in  aboat, especially with a big prop to swing :}
 
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bigred0809

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2011, 12:55:57 am »

you have been a big help thanks alot :-)) brain is struggling to take this in now so will have good look tomorrow
cheers luke
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AT Boatyard

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2011, 12:59:35 am »

Pauls lifeboat is not jetdrive.
Pauls lifeboat runs on to Emax 4030/10 Kv385
Low Kv so no need for gearboxes.
I also did the setups for Modelslipway Tamar,and the Speedline Tamar.
The list goes on and on
Nick is right about the prop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWzk98e5lQg&feature=mh_lolz&list=FLykl7SG4dYCg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tT06HTURyak&feature=related

We are on here to help not compete.

regards
Alan
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red181

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2011, 12:04:57 am »

I stand corrected about Pauls lifboat, I was thinking it was this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs&feature=related

possibly the most impressive video I have seen  :-))

Depends on what sort of performance you actually want Luke, I did this today, I have chaged the motor to a turnigy 880kv, and its now 1.14:1, so almost direct drive, at 1:1 direct drive it was all getting a bit frantic :embarrassed:, goes very well, but still a bit on the edge of things

First run is a "x" 50mm prop, then second is a "x" 55mm prop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5-YmmElIfk
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philk

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2011, 09:32:02 am »

I stand corrected about Pauls lifboat, I was thinking it was this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs&feature=related

possibly the most impressive video I have seen  :-))


strangly enough the boat in that video belongs and was built and set up by atboatyard

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philk

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Re: motor help 6ft boat
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2011, 09:33:11 am »

sorry i should say it did at the time he has now sold it on

phil
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