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Author Topic: possibilities  (Read 19029 times)

MikeA

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possibilities
« on: July 16, 2011, 01:46:34 AM »

because radar doesnt work in water well subs use sonar right. well why hasnt someone designed a sonar control system for model subs? the technology is there ,anglers can buy sonar depth finders on ebay. someone needs to do some hacking
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pugwash

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2011, 06:34:30 AM »

Correct me if I'm wrong Mike but the transducer for a fishfinder is fitted in the boat and the screen is above water, so if the transducer
was fitted to the submarine the information as to depth etc would be in the submarine - no way of getting it to the bankside where
you are without a cable trailling behind the sub or another transducer to send the info to the bank.

Geoff
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2011, 07:26:47 AM »

1. I think there are fishfinder with "ship to shore" option.
2. There are only old boots, shopping trolleys and annoyed fish in British lakes and rivers,  not much worth finding at all!
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Nige52

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2011, 08:03:20 AM »

You've missed out the headless corpse's, blown safes, shotguns, handguns, stolen cars, motorbikes etc etc.... {-) {-) {-)
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Subculture

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2011, 09:27:41 AM »

I've looked at this. Adequate bandwidth was a fly in the ointment, but if we're willing to sacrifice a little resolution, and start off with a slow boat, it should be doable. I looked at the possibility of using DTMF chips (obsolete now, but still readily available and cheap) operating via microcontroller and amplifier into an underwater speaker, and using piezo transducers attached to the side of the hull to pick up the sound and then convert to something meaningful with the DTMF receiver and microcontroller onboard the boat.

I see no reason to stick to the PPM standard, instead a packet of data could be sent perhaps  in three or four bytes. Perhaps also employ some encoding of data too.

One nice thing about a sound system, is you can use it in fresh or salt water. Also should be able to go very deep.

Davy1

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2011, 10:59:32 AM »

We do use sound on model subs but only to locate them in emergencies. (Pinger with hydrophone etc. etc.)

I think that, as as far as control goes, that radio serves us quite well - fair range (as far as you can see) and depth(~ 4m) etc.

That may be changing though with 2.4 Ghz taking over and, as Andy says, maybe a need for greater depth.

So other techniques would be valuable but it is probably commercially difficult to develop a worldwide, "submarine only" control niche market.

Now there is a challenge for someone?!
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2011, 11:02:24 AM »

You're behind the times here, chaps...

We have a guy in the AMS who did all that in his 12' Gato twenty years ago. He builds all his own electronics, it's totally awesome to see this thing in action. It sends back telemetry via a radio link to a remote monitor on his tx, like a heads up display on a pilot's helmet of where the boat is, what level it's at and what direction it's heading...it also fires torpedoes, with the same telemetry system sending back information to the monitor, and the torpedoes can be exploded electronically via the tx. All done wirelessly via a transponder(I think that's the right word)working on several different frequencies all at once.

I have a stack of video of the boat in action which will be posted up on the AMS forum very soon.


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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2011, 11:50:36 AM »

Well i can see some of you understand what i meant. i wasnt talking bout attaching a fishfinder to your sub but using the commercially available technology of a fishfinder, modifying it gizmos to act as a sound based transmitter and receiver. If you visualise it, you could stand on the side of a lake or in a boat. you could use an fpv system. put a mobile phone camera in the periscope.



you would need to send the fpv video images by sound aswell. fpv is currently available for flight and people pay up to a grand for there stuff. So why wouldnt submariners pay the same to go 50-100 metres down in the murky depths. it would eventually be cheaper like all electricals.
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2011, 12:10:38 PM »

I can't say as I understand it all, I'm as thick as a plank when it comes to electronics like this...

But is a definite possibility to do all this...our man is an electronics guru, he's worked in the top end of the industry all his life and he's a qualified radio ham licence holder. He uses frequencies I never knew existed, and at the minute is experimenting with floating aerials to receive transmissions from his boat in deep water...not the average six feet of water, but really deep water. He regularly sails in a a flooded gravel pit...and those are deep.

I'll book myself an hour or so at the local library early next week, they have some really useful computer toys I can play with, and I'll get the photos and video footage sorted out and posted up.
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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2011, 12:22:13 PM »

it goes to show what is possible then. if uk designed radar and sonar in ww2 then by now we should be able to use this technology to remote operate model subs. if this system was commercially available then im sure those of you who have deep enough pockets would jump at the chance to use it.
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2011, 12:35:43 PM »

I'll...erm...let you know...our man is currently being 'volunteered' to do something similar, albeit an awful lot less technical, for my boat.
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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2011, 02:04:31 PM »

its allready been done :
http://www.tritech.co.uk/products/products-micron_modem.htm
 just needs a micro controller to operate servos
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2011, 02:09:09 PM »

Quote "The Micron Data Modem is an exciting new development in the field of through-water communications" End quote...

I would just say that our man John has done all this...over twenty years ago.
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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2011, 02:35:00 PM »

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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2011, 02:36:59 PM »

he should have made it commercially available. he couldve reatailed these things at 799.99 lol
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2011, 03:36:02 PM »

He's not in it for money, just to make his Gato do what he wants it to do, when he wants it do it. It would be a real nice little earner, to quote Arthur Daley....
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Subculture

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2011, 05:38:23 PM »

Nikola Tesla had a radio controlled model submarine with frequency hopping working over a century ago. We all stand on the shoulders of others.

This is still a relatively unexplored aspect of model submarine technology, and with the availability of easy to program microcontrollers, that are tiny, so should be easy to fit into a small model, the time is ripe for more experimentation. Commercial systems, when available look rather expensive and cumbersome.

Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2011, 06:56:37 PM »

I received this earlier from our man John, and with his permission, I've copied and pasted here for you guys to read.

It means absolutely zero to me, but some of you may understand what the heck he's talking about!



Hi to every one,

Over the last few months I have been playing about with low frequency for under water RF link to control a submarine, a few days ago I decided what about if all of this was joined to a piezo transducer? Yes, it can be done, the transducer in the water if it is held half inch under the surface it starts to make a whirlpool standing out the water about 2inches high, and you can see the code on the top of the whirlpool.

Hopefully when I get a bit more time I will take it a bit further and see where it goes. If you touch this whirlpool it feels like it starts to burn your finger, I know what you are going to say..'dont touch it then', but at the moment the unit is running on low power but I will hit it with more power and see if I can start a hot tub for the missus, but I don't think she will like the RF burns...
 
John
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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2011, 09:18:32 PM »

nope dont understand that. Clever people like this who teleport to work!  :}
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2011, 09:47:22 PM »

Nobody understands what he's on about half the time...
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Subculture

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2011, 10:20:25 PM »

So John is using piezo transducers for the transmitter. I'd considered these as 'antenna' for the receiver on a sonic transmission system but thought they may be a bit too modest power wise for transmission. Although sound travels much more efficiently through water than air. Piezo elements also present a somewhat different load than a inductor based sounder (capacitive). I was considering the use of NXT based drivers. These are effectively voice coil elements minus the diaphragm. You attach them to boards etc. and that becomes the displacing element.

MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2011, 10:25:55 PM »

see if people like you and john were to make ma succesful fuctional system then people would ask you to make them one. i would. its not allways convenient to hire a swimming pool.
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sheerline

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #22 on: July 19, 2011, 12:32:26 AM »

Anyone considered the  effects on pond wildlife in this ?
Could we be dealing with an energy source which is possibly disruptive to marine life? I know little of this technology but given the use of Piezo electric transducers as a transmitting source and the fact that it can disrupt the surface of the pond in the manner described, I am assuming a fair amount of vibrational  energy is being dissapated, therefore could it be possible that this form of transmission could be very distressful and possibly damaging to marine creatures?
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Patrick Henry

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #23 on: July 19, 2011, 08:01:52 AM »

Chris, you are quite correct, native wildlife could/would be put in distress by any amounts of RF introduced in their habitat.

I think I'm right in saying(I'll check and confirm this)that John is playing with this idea in his own test tank and not in open water.


Rich

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MikeA

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Re: possibilities
« Reply #24 on: July 19, 2011, 09:37:40 AM »

that had crossed my mind. but if sound was used then it would be no different to a dolphin or whale probably. not sure bout rf though. buts its test phase isnt it.
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