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Author Topic: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build  (Read 31696 times)

Shipmate60

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2011, 09:05:58 PM »

Bob,
For twin shaft single rudder try the props turning the other way.
Inwards at the top, this will help with your steering.

Bob
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2011, 09:24:02 PM »

Thanks Bob, I will do that.    After building the rudder, scale to plan, I am very tempted to replace it with a much larger one to help maneoverability.  Longer, and maybe shorter so as not to be as vulnerable when handling.
Bob
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Shipmate60

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2011, 09:27:47 PM »

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farrow

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #28 on: October 11, 2011, 05:28:33 PM »

Hi Dave13,
With reference to Mohawke's 3 shafts and motors. At the moment I am building a very old Deans Amazon kit, so old it has a vacum formed hull. Get to the chase I have fitted  2 X shafts and am fitting a original rudder operated by wires to a tiller on deck, when researching further in Janes it appears Amazon was 3 X shaft as well. I am fitting 3 X 380 type motors from MMB and the middle shaft comes out astern of the other two, this leaves enough room to fit the third motor stern of the outboard motors between the shafts. By the way during WW1 Mohawke had a fore deck converted into a standard flat deck like Amazon if that is any interest to you. With 25mm props I think my project will fly.
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Dave13

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2011, 08:57:26 PM »

Hi Dodes
Yeah I was thinking about using 3 x 25 mm props with 3 x 380 type motors and rubber couplings and the scale rudder. Are you planing to do a build log ? As I for one would love to see the way you are doing the rudder operating system with wires and tiller.  :-) I have the Jane's WW1 warship book and it appears that the Mohawk was fitter with 5 x 12 pounders and 2 torpedo tubes and I did notice the flat for deck! :-)
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farrow

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #30 on: October 12, 2011, 11:53:54 AM »

Hi Dave13,
Yes I intend fitting what you have already mentioned, the rudder I cannot get a scale drawing anywhere, so I have used modellers license to make one, When I have cleaned it up I will upload a pic for you to see. the tiller on deck I thought could be controlled by some small tubing coming just out of the deck, but leading forward both sides under the deck, with wire or nylon cord threadled through then connected to spring on the rotor arms of the steering servo. This way I do not need a service hatch in the aft deck. Also Shipmate60 came up with a good idea of having two speed controlers, the centre shaft on one to poodle around a pond to save battery power, then when you feel like a bit of speed switch on the outer shafts. If I put up any pics I think I will setup my own thread, as this one is Bobs.
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #31 on: October 13, 2011, 03:27:07 PM »

Dodes:  ďI think I will setup my own thread, as this one is Bobs.Ē
Thank you.  I was trying to create a build log for my Amazon, for anyone thinking about building this or similar Deans kit. 
So far my thread keeps being diverted into controversies, however good luck with your build. I look forward to seeing some photo's.
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #32 on: October 13, 2011, 03:57:09 PM »

To reset my baseline:
The very detailed illustrated instructions and scale plan with this Deans kit are excellent, even down to a paint guide with Humbrol colour numbers. 
The fiberglass hull is finely detailed.  Almost 200 fittings supplied.
In both books previously quoted from, and the full library editions of Janeís Fighting Ships 1908 & 1914, all Tribals were oil fired.  Ungeared turbines dictated small propellers.  Variations amongst this class were so extensive that the full editions of Janeís have separate sections on each ship.
Amazon had twin shafts.

Build continues:
I have taken advice given and am fitting an Action Electronics P94 Lite to provide both ESC and mixer functions.  It arrived the day after ordering. 
Internals so far . . .


Bath test ballasting showed a maximum of 700 gm to waterline with motors shafts and rudder fitted, but this figure has to include superstructure and fittings.  Weight and space being fairly critical a 285 gm  6V  2700mAH Nicad battery was chosen.  P94 Lite is 130 gm. 

Aft compartments fitted with watertight bulkheads to limit prop turbulence ingress when going full astern.
Prop support stanchions fabricated in ABS, as the kit came with a single shaft for easy build.
There were clearly defined bilge keel positions along the hull, so I fitted them to help roll stability.


I came up with an idea to mount the receiver high in the foícísíle for best reception and to keep it away from other electrics.  A simple aluminium strip assembly that can be slid in under from the second funnel access panel and locked in place by the battery.  Aerial goes up into the superstructure.


I have fitted a slightly larger than scale rudder, which I believe will be necessary at this scale.  The kitís upper false rudder is fixed, the part underwater steers, thus no unsightly external tillers or wires to snag on quarterdeck fittings and railings.  Plenty of room for rudder servo with ball joint linkage inside the hull, under a removable access hatch

So far the running equipment has cost more than the kit, and a significant part of the work involved.  However, I have learned from my cruiser rebuild experience.  When another haíporth of tar is needed . . .   %)

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farrow

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #33 on: October 13, 2011, 09:13:48 PM »

Hi Bobk,
Looking good, like the hull detail, glad you have researched the number of shafts, I was going for a third but your work has saved me a lot of bother, still debating getting a new fibre glass hull and starting again. One thing Deans have always produced well is their hulls. I look forward with interest to seeing the rest of your build, this period of ship build has always fascinated me most.
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #34 on: October 13, 2011, 09:54:17 PM »

Hi Dodes.  Thank you.  I hope you can see better how Deans adapted the very small transom mounted rudder into something that sails well as a model, whilst still looking realistic.  Personally, I have made it larger than their plan and parts, but only the fish will notice.
I have found them to be very helpful, so worth giving them a call about a hull and stuff you may have missing.
I have seen Mohawk made up in their showroom and it does look nice.

Below is a completed Amazon i photographed at their Open Day.  Maybe in 2 or 3 months mine will look like that  %)
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farrow

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #35 on: October 15, 2011, 09:39:56 AM »

Hi Bobk,
Yes your boat will turn well with your rudder, twin screws with one rudder have always been a pain with real ships, as the rudder has no effect until you get a reasonable flow on it, that is probably why ships where fitted with outboard turning screws. On I was on the St Margaret's and she had to be manoeuvred on the screws when berthing, starting to turn from rest or a tight turn when moving slow. I am interested in the method I have stated, as my model will if finished reasonable be on display at times and I fancy the challenge of doing it that way. I suspect I will have to make a clip on piece for when it goes in the pond. Ref your remark about 3 props on one shaft it was the Eden, six props on two shafts, I wonder how efficient it was. I like your layout for the motors etc in your model, it looks very clean and efficient, smart. Looking forward to seeing more of your posts, great work.
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #36 on: October 15, 2011, 11:28:01 PM »

Digressing slightly, multiple (or tandem) props on a single shaft were not unusual in the early days of Parsons ungeared steam turbines, the first being the Turbinia of 1894 which caused such a stir at the Fleet Review of 1898.  Three shafts, each with three 18 inch props - nine in all.  The ship is on display at the Discovery Museum in Newcastle.  Parsons turbines powered destroyers HMS Viper & Cobra of 1899, plus all the Tribal 'F' Class destroyers - the fastest ships of their day.  Parsons later introduction of the geared turbine allowed slower shaft RPM and thus larger propellers.  eg:  HMS Dreadnaught.

Getting back to HMS Amazon, I am currently on hold needing three servo extension cables and some 2mm2 flexible wire.  Frustrating, I will have to wait till Wednesday to pop out and get some.  When the electrics are commissioned and tested I can start on the decks.  I will have mixer control of the props, plus a large rudder to deflect prop flow at slow speeds.

PS:  With the small Raboesch motors you could turn them through 90 degrees on the shaft axis to get a third in, but with the longer centre shaft you would be restricted to a scale size rudder and some tricky linkages when moving the pivot tube aft.  The extra motor plus shaft and ESC could be challenging in terms of weight.
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #37 on: October 19, 2011, 05:08:15 PM »

Moment of truth !

All electrics completed, checked, checked, and treble checked.  Planet RM6 receiver powered up on its own, transmitter switched on, press Rx microswitch, binding successful.  Easy.
Deep breath.  Connect power to rest of ship.   {:-{

My first use of an Action P94, combined twin ESCís with mixer.  Set up in Mode 4.  ie: proportional control of motor speeds depending on rudder position.  On 50% inboard prop just stops at full rudder.  I was impressed with Actionís ĎAutosetí system.  Switch on TX, switch on Rx.  Wait 5 seconds until relays click.  Set up done.  No fiddling with individual ESC buttons one side at a time.  Neat  :-))

Ship carrier for my HMS Skirmisher has sprouted additional foam blocks for this destroyer so I can carry either to the lake using the same carrier.  The very slender beam is apparent in picture.  Also necessary for commissioning as prop edges are on the keel line with enlarged rudder protruding below.


Next step:  Finish fitting decks with access cover hatches and it could be a trip to Black Park this Sunday   :}
Any ideas on how I can get a small quantity of lead flashing, about 300gm?  Wickes do it but at over a hundred quid per M2
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pugwash

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #38 on: October 19, 2011, 05:18:50 PM »

Bob just one comment which may be of assistance - I used some foam which looks very similar to the green foam you have used.
just a 1/4 inch thick strip lining the wooden stand - left the boat in it for about 5 weeks whilst working on it and when I went to lift
it out I had chunks of foam sticking to the hull and some paint sticking to the foam
had a hell of a job getting the foam off the paint without causing further damage..

Geoff
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #39 on: October 19, 2011, 05:28:03 PM »

Geoff:  Good point about foam.  This is from a well used kneeling mat, quite hard and very dense grain. Cuts reasonably well and has not caused any problems with my cruiser over four months.
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John R Haynes

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #40 on: October 20, 2011, 09:53:10 AM »

The velox hull and parts  for Ron Deans kit came from me and with the mention of  Turbinia on this thread  I thought I would say that I am building this for a client at 1/48 scale . Fleetscale are presently  grping the plug and this hull will be available from them in due course . Turbinia Metcalf Plans are available from Nexas plans service
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #41 on: October 20, 2011, 02:46:12 PM »

John:  If this hull is from your work then I am honoured, and will do my best to do it justice in my build.  Your models are awesome.
Turbinia was such a huge milestone in shipbuilding development, its turbine driven nine propellers gave it unprecedented speed.
I understand that Viper and Cobra of 1899 were also tandem props per shaft.  Do you have further information as to whether early Tribals such as Amazon were also tandam props?  Even the Full Jane's of 1906 and 1914 do not quote this.
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John R Haynes

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #42 on: October 20, 2011, 07:31:35 PM »

According to Manning [ book ] the Tribals had three screws . This I believe were three shafts and three screws
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brianB6

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #43 on: October 20, 2011, 10:07:04 PM »

What about fishing sinkers for weight>.  Available in several sizes and shapes
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thelegos

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #44 on: October 20, 2011, 11:31:49 PM »

Hi Bob,
I've been watching your build and it's coming on a treat. The topic regarding these particular ships is causing much interest as well, Turbinia is something I was marvelling at a couple of weeks ago whilst looking at Martin's pictures from the Science Museum ship gallery, an amazing ship as you say but not modelled as much as I would have expected; perhaps there are technicalities that make it a difficult subject.

Roger


Link added. Admin - Howes have these back in stock @£ 39.99 + P@P

http://www.howesmodels.co.uk/RadioControl/viewProducts.php?SubCatID=114
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2011, 07:11:31 PM »

Thanks Roger:  I am enjoying this build.
" [Turbinia] . . . but not modelled as much as I would have expected; perhaps there are technicalities that make it a difficult subject."

Mounting nine props on three shafts would certainly be a challenge !

Back to the Amazon, decks and access panels in progress.  Pics to follow shortly.
Bob
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2011, 09:28:23 PM »

HMS Amazon  -  Decks

Prior to installing the electrics I had cut the main and fíoícísíle decks to size, gradually shaving the profile to fit the hull.  I have enlarged the access panel holes both wider and longer to suit my own internals, making sure I could access each of the parts inside whilst keeping the joints consistent with superstructure parts to be fitted later.  
Remainder of under-deck beams fitted, avoiding cut outs.
Each aperture was then given an internal surrounding flange in 2 mm thick plastic strip, enough to support the panels cut out.
 
The fíoícísíle cut out is for the Rx aerial to go up inside the gun platform deck.


Cover panels fitted and temporarily sellotaped in to keep dust out.  Decks glued in place.  When dry hull edges were filed flush to deck, and some filler applied in joints where required.  
Note the ship carrier frame can be used as a stand alone for transport, or fitted into my Skirmisher carrier as in previous post.

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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #47 on: October 23, 2011, 01:34:16 PM »

The Launch
Battery charged, hatches battened down, and off to Black Park for the official launch.  Sunny.  Wind 13 Kt.
Trusty luggage straps with stainless buckles avoids having to bend.  The weight of the buckles drops straps clear of props and rudder.  Also makes it easier to position straps for lifting out.
 

Sea Trials

Only 100 gm of lead in the bow was needed to trim ballast line, allowing for later superstructure and fittings.  I was able to get some lead flashing from a scrap metal company, gratis.  HMS Amazon proved to be an excellent sea boat, exemplary stability with very little list on tight turns.  The angled bilge keels hopefully helped. 
The Action P94 ESCís/mixer unit had it turning on a sixpence.
Perhaps I may reduce the rudder size, I probably oversized it more than necessary.  The Raboesch motors, whilst giving a realistic turn of speed could possibly be upsized a little for something with more torque and lower RPM. 
Overall a successful day out.  Subject to a couple of improvements above this should be an superb ship to sail. 

We now move on to the fitting out basin.   :}
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Dave13

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #48 on: October 24, 2011, 05:47:10 PM »

Wow Bob you don't hang about  :-) She looks good on the water thow :-)) :-))
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bobk

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Re: HMS Amazon 1906 - Build
« Reply #49 on: October 24, 2011, 07:49:02 PM »

Thank you Dave, she does handle nicely.  Only been about 5 weeks on the stocks, a little done most evenings.   %)
You were going for 25 mm props on your Mohawk.  I think I may try upsizing from 20 to 25 mm myself as this may be easier than resizing motors on 2 mm shafts.  Worth a try as these motors go at high RPM, as you can see from the wake. Triple motors and shafts may be possible but weight is critical.  In which case suggest turning motors 900 to fit closer, moving shafts + battery forward, trading the 100 gm bow ballast for the extra motor ESC and shaft.
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