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Author Topic: Europe petition, please help.  (Read 3285 times)

bikerdude666

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Europe petition, please help.
« on: September 23, 2011, 10:13:24 am »

I don't know if there are many of you on here who are bikers, but the eu are proposing some pretty ridiculous legislation against bikes. Some of the main 1's being anti tampering laws, meaning nothing can be done to a bike outside of the dealership, and if a part (for example an air filter) can fit your road bike, but also fits a track bike, they wan to make it illegal to sell the part in Europe. It would also mean the uk would have to get rid of it's sva (sine vehicle approval? I think that what it stands for) which would be the end of special one off custom machines, no matte how well built they were.

Another part if the proposal is that all rider and pillions would HAVE to wear hi viz clothing everytime they go on their bike, (now they wanna tell us what bloody clothes we can wear?!) some of the other proposals include abs for all bikes aswell as traction control, and a reverse gear for certain bikes.

Even if you don't ride but can see the idiocy in this legislation please pledge your support on the link below, it only takes a minute to sign and then you just click a link in an email they send you to confirm your email address. You will receive no spam to your email or home address, they just need the details to make sure all the signatories are genuine.

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/5334
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wullie/mk2

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2011, 10:24:41 am »

Having been a Biker, for over 40 years,i can agree with you on some of what you say,...But your negativity,about High/Viz clothing astounds me,...Its a known fact,that more bikers are killed by cars/auto,s ..whose drivers have failed to see the biker, wether it was because the biker was not wearing high/viz clothing or Not using  headlights,therefore i,m all for anything which makes the biker more visual,....and its not about being told what to wear,
as for the other things,...well, thats Brussels for you, and like a lot of other Brussels rules, we, will end up kowtowing to them, for as long as we are in the "Common Market"
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dondecap

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2011, 10:33:23 am »

hi guys,
I am an ex-biker...30years+ in the saddle,
what to wear?.......... I have done the 'geens and 't' shirt stunt .....and lived to regret it..........the british police will 'pull' you if not wearing leathers these days.......not on a legal footing but on a safety advisory footing..
Hi-Vis? well this is not such a bad thing is it? surely if you are easier to see it 'could' cut the accident rate.........I believe switching you lights on 24/7 is as good a safety feature as the Hi Vis..you can certainly see a head light long before a bike out line and that cost nothing as the lights run from the engine not the battery when moving
after market 'spares and accessories' now that is a different thing all together........ freedom of choice.....which already carries it's own regs here in uk any way......ie decibel rate for exhausts, light requirements etc. this could hit the manufacture/retail side quite hard. only maker parts......thats not good and expensive
not sure what to think of the ABS route, I certainly would not fancy my front suspension isolating under heavy braking like a car wheel does when ABS cuts in.
no custom builds.....this is again eroding our 'freedom' that we have here.it would be worth signing just to preserve one or two items of 'freedom of choice'
I will sign this :)

wow yhey must be quiet at the moment I had an instant email confirmation click sent......... all signed up now .............. what was it to win again????? ;) ;) ;)
regards
don
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nhp651

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2011, 10:47:03 am »

it's a pity the e petition didn't single out certain aspects such as the regs on vehicle mods and using none dealer spares as a seperate issue.

 Had it done so I would have signed gladly as I have been biking since my 16th birthday in 1967( but lapsed now) and never ever bought a dealeritem, always shopping round for other stuff just as good..

However in this day and age when traffic is so horrendous I think that hi viz and other safety features are a must and should be legislated for.....it's like wearing a skid lid.....there was so much against even down to going to court about Human rights.......but every biker in the land knew it was for the better, and anytghing that keeps a biker safer these days IS TOTALLY WORTH WHILE. If I had my way I'd legislate that ALL pedal cyclists wor hi viz, helmets AND  had insurance for at least 3rd party..they can kill pedestians as well!!!

So sorry, bikerdude, I couldn't, hand on heart, sign it in it's present format, and I stand up and be counted for this decision. sorry mate.

neil.
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2011, 10:48:18 am »

Another stupid law thats nigh on unenforceable.

How can they prove where the bike was serviced?
And like the average policeman would know what genuine parts look like

It would not be wise for them to loose the SVA as it means many military and special use vehicles would become outlawed

The high viz thing I agree with tho
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2011, 10:51:00 am »

I am not sure what the point would be in petitioning the UK government.

If this is to be an EU directive the UK government have no power in the matter. They are required to implement the directive.  In any area where the EU claims a competence, national legislative processes are overridden, and (to forestall any comments) the concept of Parliamentary Sovereignty is not recognised. Without checking, I understand that 'Constitutional and Administrative Law' (7th edition) by John Alder (Palgrave Macmillan 2009) p173 will tell you all that you need to know.... 
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2011, 11:22:07 am »

Probably not the entire story, but -
http://www.visordown.com/motorcycle-news-industry/eu-proposes-anti-tampering-measures-and-abs-for-all-bikes-by-2013/14520.html

Quote
How can they prove where the bike was serviced?
The same way they check on your MOT status - the "approved dealer" logs the service into the DVLA system.

Sadly, the assumption these days is that all consumers are totally incompetent morons lacking any form of skill other than that which they have a certificate for - even more sadly, looking around at the general public, this seems increasingly to be the case.  Sort of a self fulfilling prophesy. 
DIY servicing gained in popularity because of the motor trades liking for poor service, high charges and a total lack of care for the customer, hence the aftermarket in parts.  While such a system would make the "approved" agents accountable, it will invariably be seen by them as a golden excuse to increase costs.- in the name of quality, with only a very marginal increase in the quality and none whatever in the value to the customer.
Going back about 40 years, when my brother in law was into custom cars, there was a mention in one of the magazines back then that on the continent, about the only thing you could customize legally was the paint job.
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bikemec

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2011, 11:38:24 am »

Signed the petition,

Can't agree with comments about Hi viz stuff as Odge once said you could ride a dayglo honda goldwing and they still won't seeya if they don't look.

and all my gear would then be illegal

and I'm an adult so should be able to decide what to wear when walking, ridding, canoeing, and sailing model boats
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geoff p

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2011, 02:24:51 pm »

Signed the petition (or pertition, as the originator spells it.)

Living and riding in Thailand offers a completely different perspective on road-safety.  Here, motorbikes far outnumber cars, and although the laws/rules/regulations are all in place, very few car-drivers or bike-drivers pay any heed, so the accident rate is astronomical.  It really doesn't matter what you wear if the other party is blethering on their mobile-phone or watching TV on the dashboard telly that some cars have.

To offer a little data:  Thailand's population is very similar to UK, about 55-60 million.  Road deaths in UK, around 600-700 per year (way out-of-date figures) Thailand achieves similar figures but PER DAY in Xmas/New Year holiday season.  They don't even try to record/publish mere injury figures.

Careless drivers (of both cars and bikes) and the arrogance of many that can afford a car, Kill.  As one (Thai) friend expressed it "I don't need to think, I'm Thai."    Or you can blame it on Buddha.

I would dread to be forced to get my spares and service only from the Honda Dealership.  Yesterday I had a new drive-chain and sprockets fitted.  The chain from Honda is over 2000 Baht (40 quid) but the not-Honda-branded one I got was 12 quid (600 Baht), a difference of about 3-months fuel-consumption.

Geoff,
Happy-go-lucky, in Thailand.
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bikerdude666

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2011, 08:01:31 pm »

Oh well worth a try, hiviz is fine if people want to wear it, but I have a black bike, with black jacket, black helmet, black boots, black trousers, black gloves, black sun glasses, I ride in all weathers/times of day, and I've never had a problem, not had a single accident in 7 years of riding. I can understand 'advising' certain things but makin it law is ridiculous, how about all these factory made cars with clear indicator lenses and orange bulbs that are invisible in any amount of sunlight.

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bikerdude666

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 08:15:11 pm »

I can understand about being visible BUT when half the time it's that drivers just aren't taking notice (in Bristol there's a goldwing that every Christmas gets covered in tinsel and fairy lights and yet last year he got knocked off, reason, 'sorry mate didn't see you') rather than legislating against bikes how about teaching drivers to drive properly and be aware of situations, and just how vulnerable bikes are.

Headlights are already hardwired, and tbh the time I get noticed most (proved by all the cars pulling over out my way on the motorway) is when I have my scruffy old denim cutoff covered in various badges over the top of my leather jacket.

I'm not disagreeing with the theory of the hiviz but with the making it compulsory, painting our bikes in floured en colours and silver strips would make it more visible, but should we? Physically limiting all cars to a maximum of 70mph would enforce speed limits, but should they? Electronic remote control of throttles could limit the vehicles speed, but that doesn't mean it should happen. There's alot of things that would make things safer, but that doesn't mean it should be the law.

However, agree to disagree.
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carlmt

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2011, 08:16:57 pm »

I am with you Bikerdude666 - education rather than legislation is the answer...............and educate the myopic car drivers!!!!!!

I have been riding for over 30 years.........and I am not going to tempt fate!!!!........

Today's bikes dont even have an off switch for the headlights!!!!  We dont need legislation from some Eurocrat who probably cant tell the front end from the rear!!!!

I am riding with MAG this weekend - protests all over the country......watch for us!!!!
Carl

Tony S

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2011, 12:14:21 am »

As I recall a similar proposal was made some time ago to legislate against aftermarket parts being fitted to cars,and if I remember correctly,they also wanted to invalidate a vehicles warranty if it wasn't serviced by a main dealer.I'm writing this from memory so the precise details i'm not sure about.I believe it failed due to lobbying by the manufacturers of aftermarket parts and independent garages.
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irishcarguy

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2011, 10:11:35 am »

What they are doing is packaging a poison pill in the middle of some good leglation. This is a new bureaucratic trick by the busybodies with nothing better to do than to take yet another freedom away & it is supposed to be better for us. Of course what is really happening over time is we are get nearer & nearer to a police state mentality & we are loosing our democracy a little bit at a time without noticing it happening. Mick B.
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Mick B.

dodgy geezer

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2011, 01:24:17 pm »


... & we are loosing our democracy a little bit at a time without noticing it happening...


See my earlier comment above. It is pointless protesting to the UK Government over this - they cannot do anything about it. In fact, there is no avenue for a protest to be made any more. If you want to define 'democracy' as the ability for people have their desires considered by government, then this has now been completely lost....   
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bikerdude666

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2011, 02:36:56 pm »

See my earlier comment above. It is pointless protesting to the UK Government over this - they cannot do anything about it. In fact, there is no avenue for a protest to be made any more. If you want to define 'democracy' as the ability for people have their desires considered by government, then this has now been completely lost....   

I have to disagree with you, we aren't protesting to the I'm government, but to the uk MEP's, it's the MEP's that have the ability to stop this, the uk government has no direct power but that doesn't mean the uk as a whole has no say.

As for the slow loss of freedom, that's exactly my point, hiviz may be a good idea, (I'm still not entirely convinved, every colour stands out against certain back grounds) but taking away our right to choose is wrong, chips arent healthy, so maybe we should close all chip shops and macsonalds etc

And the anti-tampering, it was proposed for cars but rejected, so they're trying it on a smaller group, namely bikes, once they've got it done for bikes, they'll bring the car laws inline with the bikes laws. Not to mention the loss of thousands of jobs as hundreds of businesses close, when it becomes illegal to sell aftermarket exhausts, tyres, bulbs, spark plugs, filters, brake pads, you name it. If it's fitted it has to be manufacturer, and we all know about the price of genuine parts.

On a lighter note, there were plenty of people out to protest, in excess of 150 at my local ride, bikes of all types, people of all backgrounds, united against over restrictive eu legislation bein made by those who don't ride but think they know best.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2011, 03:51:08 pm »


.. we aren't protesting to the I'm government, but to the uk MEP's, it's the MEP's that have the ability to stop this, the uk government has no direct power but that doesn't mean the uk as a whole has no say....


It would be nice to think so...

The MEPs are members of the European Parliament.

The European Parliament does not make laws. It has NO 'power of legislative initiative'. This is reserved for the European Commission. They draft the laws, either because they want to or the Council asks them to. They are appointed, not elected.

It is true that the laws have to be agreed both by the Council and the Parliament, but if the Commission are pushing them they will be passed on the nod. Rather than a parliamentary democracy of the kind we are used to, the EU is run in a fashion more similar to a large company, with an appointed Board. The European Parliament might be thought of as a 'workers council'....   



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pettyofficernick

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2011, 06:54:24 pm »

Oh dear oh dear, the eurocrats meddling in the affairs of ordinary folk once more. What would they have said about my old C15 with 'Megga' silencer (with the baffles removed, of course!) or my 16H Norton, with a sidecar chassis and a plank, headlight held on with string and wire holding the exhaust on? passed its MOT like that too back in 1971. Now both long since gone to that great spares pile in the sky, oh how things have changed. :(( :((
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bobk

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2011, 08:12:54 pm »

Ah, a C15.  Now you are talking real bikes.  I passed my bike test at age 15, back in the days when you could fill a petrol tank for a Quid.  Then onto a BSA D7, a B40 SS90, before acquiring a beautiful 1960 BMW R60 that I treasured for decades - even won a concours for it in sidecar mode when the family came along.  Travelled all over Europe.  Wonderful days.
In the early days I remember how little traffic there was, biking was a real joy, but gradually things changed.  Today roads are built for use by air conditioned 4 wheelers, audibly isolated from outside reality with so much crumple protection the worst that could seemingly happen is text on the windshield saying "game over".  Drivers don't care, don't think, and their minds are elsewhere.
As for bikes, the industry gradually lost the will to produce genuine practical touring vehicles. Bikes you could safely load with luggage and chug along day after day with pistons firing every other lamp post.
High swept exhausts, Sunday boy-racer posers with ridiculous power & RPM, seat heights went up from 26" to 32".  My BMW R90 was fine but the K100 showed how impractical bikes had become. As road conditions worsened, car drivers became more obliviously lethal, I finally decided to hang up my helmet and call it a day a few years ago - before I became a car victim.  I do miss not having a bike, and SO hate driving cars.
Sorry guys MP's & MEP's drive cars.  Its all they care about, until the worlds oil runs out.
Enjoy it while you can.

Avid ex-biker with warm memories of the open road on two wheels.
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andyn

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2011, 08:17:10 pm »

High visibilty clothing on bikes all the time? Please....

I ride a whacking great motorcross bike, it's black with yellow trim and gold wheels. I myself at 6 foot 4 am not exactly small, and wear a bright blue jacket, multicoloured rucksack and blue jeans when I'm on it.

If anyone hits me and claims they didn't see me, then as usual they weren't 'blinking' looking...

Andy.
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Nordsee

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2011, 08:31:37 pm »

Hi vis, fine, why not!? Daytime lights, also yes, been Law here for many years, also Holland. Why do Riders who "Customise" their machines, remove the Indicators and replace them with Micro LEDs tucked under the saddle? then when a car driver wipes them out because the signals dissappeared in the sunshine, they complain?
  Here in Germany they grovel to the EU and implement every Cranky idea coming out of Brussels, have you got E10 Petrol in UK yet? We have, pay more for a fuel that could ruin your engine, even modern ones and that delivers 10% less performance and fuel economy. Because no one has bought it ( Suprise, Suprise!!) they have imposed that Normal Super Petrol (95 Octane)must be 3 or 4 cents a litre more expensive than the E10.
 If yxou want to see Custumised Bikes, well there are plenty here, it is just that all alterations must be on the Bikes Papers, so where is that problem? Sorry I won't sign-up, if it becomes Law, it will be mainly ignored by most Countries anyway!!
  Next time I visit my mate I will take a pic of his Streetfighter, Road Legal and what a Conversion!
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Shipmate60

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2011, 08:52:05 pm »

I am rather confused about this thread.
I agree with the parts issue but cant understand why High Viz is such an issue when you all wear clothing dictated already - the skid lid.

Bob
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2011, 09:50:21 pm »

I am rather confused about this thread.
I agree with the parts issue but cant understand why High Viz is such an issue when you all wear clothing dictated already - the skid lid.

Bob
The proposed legislation lumps together some very sensible ideas to make safety standards universal across the EU, which is no bad thing, with some total dross attempting to destroy the possibility of getting spares from sources other than the original manufacturer, and quite possibly having them fitted by independants.  Going off experience with car main agents, where thievery is common, competence is optional and customer care unheard of, this is not a good thing to force on anybody.  Unfortunately the petition, while succinct, objects to the legislation without being in any way specific.  This leaves the petition in a limbo where it can be ignored by the powers that be because it can be construed, through the back door, as objecting to sensible safety legislation.

Quote
headlight held on with string and wire holding the exhaust on? passed its MOT like that too back in 1971.
Yes, there were plenty of MOT stations like that back then, and legislation was quite reasonably tightened so that the station and tester could be tracked when the travelling accident that they had certified happened.
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Dekan

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2011, 10:19:28 pm »

I am rather confused about this thread.
I agree with the parts issue but cant understand why High Viz is such an issue when you all wear clothing dictated already - the skid lid.

Bob
I read some where that one of the US anti crash helmet brigade died of head injuries on his way to a rally to protest about wearing crash helmets.. %)

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andyn

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Re: Europe petition, please help.
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2011, 11:55:37 pm »

Anyone with any sense wears a proper jacket, boots and helmet when they go out on a bike at least. The issue is we don't all want to look like Stabilo Boss Michelin men when we get off the bike at the other end. The problem 99% of the time is the idiots in tin cans who do not look for anything smaller than their own car.

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