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Author Topic: Graf Spee photos  (Read 12573 times)

John W E

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Graf Spee photos
« on: October 07, 2011, 08:32:54 PM »

Couple of photos of the grar spee after the Battle of the River Plate  which have come into my possession ,Nor sure if they are on the Web already
May be interesting to some of the members

aye

john
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John W E

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2011, 08:39:04 PM »

 :-))
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2011, 09:01:43 PM »

such a shame there was a war,with so many lives lost,and so many beautiful ships. "Lest we Forget"
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richtea

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2011, 09:33:54 PM »

Thank's for those great pictures ,
have never seen the false bow wave before,
made a note of that for when I start the one in the stash.
Regards
Richard   :-))
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John W E

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2011, 09:50:53 PM »

Hi couple more 2 of HMS EXETER and one of  Graf Spee

aye
john
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2011, 12:04:53 AM »

am I right in thinking they are trying to raise whats left of Graf Spee?
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derekwarner

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2011, 12:19:49 AM »

 :-)) Bluebird ...that is an interesting image in........HA Night Shot

How many Naval ratings [Officers/Men] do we see?

What is the gun Officer doing higher up & outboard on the left mount?  <*< ...during a firing/action.......this would usually be a job for a non commissioned member of the crew  <:(

The following courtesy Wikipedia........Derek

QF 4 inch Mk V naval gunFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
Ordnance QF 4 inch gun Mk V

HA gun in action during World War II
Type Naval gun
Anti-aircraft gun
Coastal defence gun
Place of origin  United Kingdom
Service history
In service 1914 - 1940s
Used by British Empire
Wars World War I
World War II
Production history
Number built 944[1]
Specifications
Weight Barrel & breech: 4,890 lb (2,220 kg)[2]
Barrel length Bore: 15 ft (4.6 m)
(45 cal)
Total: 15 ft 8 in (4.8 m)[2]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Shell 31 lb (14 kg) fixed QF or Separate-loading QF
Calibre 4-inch (101.6 mm)
Breech horizontal sliding block
Recoil hydro-pneumatic or hydro-spring 15 inches (380 mm)
Elevation mounting dependent
Traverse mounting dependent
Muzzle velocity 2,350 ft/s (716 m/s)[2]
Maximum range Surface: 16,300 yd (15,000 m)[3]
AA: 28,750 ft (8,800 m)[2]
Filling Lyddite, Amatol
Filling weight 5 pounds (2.27 kg)

The QF 4 inch Mk V gun[4] was a Royal Navy gun of World War I which was adapted on HA mountings to the heavy anti-aircraft role both at sea and on land, and was also used as a coast defence gun.

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Derek Warner

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pugwash

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2011, 05:05:29 AM »

Derek I think you will find that person is neither an officer nor NCO but a Royal Marine - looks as though is it the RM mounting.

Geoff
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2011, 11:32:35 AM »

Quote
am I right in thinking they are trying to raise whats left of Graf Spee?

Yes, there are reports to that effect: http://www.lummifilm.com/grafspee/about.html

Colin
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wullie/mk2

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2011, 02:32:42 PM »

A few years ago they did manage to raise the Bronze Eagle that was on her stern, it sold for over 7 million,
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Nordsee

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2012, 05:07:44 PM »

Looking at the photos of her after the Battle, there doesn't seem to be very much obvious damage to her? Or am I looking in the wrong places?
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richtea

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2012, 09:57:40 PM »

Nordsee,
Most of the damage to Graf Spee was superficial.
She took approx. 70 hits during the Battle of the River Plate.
The most serious damage was the destruction of the oil purification plant,  the desalination plant and the kitchens.
Uppermost in Captain Langsdoff's mind was the safety of his crew and the Admiralty had deceived him into believing that HMS Ark Royal and HMS Renown had joined up with the cruisers and were waiting out in the Atlantic for him.
He knew that the Renown's 15 inch guns would pulverise his ship and cause massive casualties to his crew if he decided to fight.
So he took what for him was an honourable decision, scuttle the ship and save the crew.
Regards
Richard
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snowwolflair

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2012, 10:04:58 PM »

There was a real danger she would have been captured as a prize.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2012, 10:10:32 PM »

A lot of the damage would have been internal within the upperworks and thus not very obvious externally. HMS Exeter was very seriously damaged as photos taken immediately after the battle show but still looked relatively undamaged on her return to Plymouth.

Colin
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2012, 11:55:39 PM »

Does anyone know any more about the raising of Graf Spee other than the salvaged eagle? there must be some photos somewhere ?
As far as taking her for a prize,she would have ended up on the scrap list like all the others apart from the Belfast.What a shame that our government didn't have the foresight to save at least one of our battleships.I will exclude the Vanguard from that thought,because she looked more like one of the American battlebuses,than a "traditional" British one.
  Say what you like, the German Capital ships were beautiful looking machines again,it was so sad that they all had to be sunk,and as with our ships,with such terrible loss of life. I think I am right in saying the largest German ship to survive the war,was the battlecruiser "Prinz Eugen",and she was used in atom bomb tests at Bikini Atoll?
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Shipmate60

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2012, 12:16:52 AM »

After the Channel Dash with Bismark she spent most of the war in the Baltic.
She surrendered in Portsmouth and was given to the Americans.
She was used at Bikini Atoll Nuclear tests. She was anchored off the coast.
She survived the first blast but turned turtle on the second and sank.
There are pics of her centre propeller out of the water.

CLICK HERE

Bob
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DickyD

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2012, 01:08:17 AM »

A few photos.





























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Richard Solent Radio Controlled Model Boat Club http://www.srcmbc.org.uk

richtea

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2012, 11:22:06 AM »

Fantastic pictures Dicky,
thank's for posting them.
Regards
Richard  :-))
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #18 on: January 29, 2012, 11:43:33 AM »

GREAT PHOTOS! I would think the underwater ones are computer generated,like those of the Royal Oak as to get all the ship in the photo the camera would have to be so far away,and then the murkiness of the water would stop that.Certainly gives a good idea of what she looks like now though!
I wonder if she will ever be raised? The Direction finder has certainly been brought back to a good condition,so shows what could be done to the rest of it,should they get it up.
Mick
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bikerdude666

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #19 on: January 29, 2012, 12:45:31 PM »

Would you dig up a war grave? sunken ships, however interesting should stay at the bottom....

I find it interesting that the turrets have stayed on, I thought they normally came off when a ship sank?
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 01:02:19 PM »

No I certainly would not dig up a war grave,and on the whole I agree that as such they should never be disturbed.Nor should the Titanic have been plundered as such,although I do believe they were right to find the wreck and show the world,but leave the artefacts where they are.
Getting back to the Graf Spee however,as far as I am aware she is not a war grave,as Captain Langsdorff , a person who cared for his crew,gave the order for her to be scuttled to save any further loss of life.Again, when Graf Spee came into the River Plate after the battle with our Cruisers, Ajax,Achillies and Exeter, the bodies of those killed were brought ashore and given a proper funeral,at which the British prisoners of war,who were on board Graf Spee during the battle,attended to a man..without any pressure,to pay their respects to the fallen Geman Crew who had treated them so fairly.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #21 on: January 29, 2012, 01:40:02 PM »

Quote
I find it interesting that the turrets have stayed on, I thought they normally came off when a ship sank?

Only if the ship turns turtle and they fall out or sometimes if they are blown off by a magazine explosion although in that case usually just the roof tends to get blown off - see the wreck of HMS Invincible.

Graf Spee had only a few feet of water under her when she was scuttled and just settled on the muddy bottom. She had also shot away a large proportion of her ammunition so there was less to explode than there might otherwise have been.

Colin
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raflaunches

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2012, 01:40:45 PM »

I have just finished reading several books about the Battle of the River Plate, whilst some posts have said that the damage to Graf Spee was superficial it was mentioned that one hit from Exeter took out her oil purification equipment but the damage was actually much worse than anyone has ever let on.  One 8inch shell penetrated the bows and passed through several water tight bulkheads, another seriously damaged one of the diesel engines, her torpedo tubes on the stern were destroyed and if I remember correctly a 6inch shell passed through the bridge narrowly missing Langsdorff and his bridge crew.  The Arado spotter plane was destroyed and the aviation fuel caused a big fire damaging the catapult.  Langsdorff was a very caring man but knew that the HMS Cumberland had arrived and was ready for action.  The county class cruiser could easily destroy a pocket battleship because Graf Spee carried very little armour and as proved by the Exeter's excellent shooting the 8 inch shells were more than enough to do the job.  Cumberland was faster, better protected and could fire faster than Graf Spee could respond making the decision by Langsdorff very wise, he just was fooled into believing how many ships were actually out there waiting for him.  According to the book I read very early on the cruise of the Graf Spee the Cumberland passed within twenty miles of each other, which would have led to a very different outcome if they had known of this.
On another note the British government bought the wreak through a scrap company to prevent spies finding out what they wanted, which was the radar set which was removed and taken to Orford Ness for evalument as the Graf Spee was one of the first ships to be fitted with gunnery radar.

Nick B
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John W E

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2012, 04:16:28 PM »

Hi ya there

The story of the Battle of the River Plate and the Graf Spee is in 3 parts; the first part of it was the hunting/battle of the River Plate - and then there is the actual scuttling of the Graf Spee with all its deceptiveness of the British and the last one, which is often forgotten - is the hunting down/chasing of the Altmark which was the supply ship for the Graf Spee and she had all of the Prisoners of War on board her from the sunken merchant ships.   If you get the chance, a good book to read is 'The Navy is here' which gives an account of the chasing of the Altmark into the Norweigan Fjords.  

This is where my family connection comes into it - my Uncle Billy was one of the prisoners of war on the Altmark - and in the book he is mentioned as W.W.Talbot Mess Room Boy, so he must have been between the age of 15-16 when he was a Prisoner of War.  He very rarely spoke with regards to his experiences but one thing he did remark on once was the difference between the Captains of Langstoff was that he was a gentleman and he treat everyone with great respect - different to the Captain of the Altmark who apparently had no regard whatsoever for anyone.
http://www.archive.org/stream/atmarkaffair006961mbp/atmarkaffair006961mbp_djvu.txt

aye
john
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Rottweiler

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Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2012, 04:40:42 PM »

 and not forgetting the Tribal Class Destroyer HMS Cossack which finally came alongside and it was reportedly crew members from her who shouted the immortal line " The Navy's Here!"
Mick
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