Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Down

Author Topic: Graf Spee photos  (Read 12580 times)

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2012, 05:30:20 PM »

Not sure that Cumberland would have been a direct match for Graf Spee. her side armour, as refitted. was about the same at around 4 inches and about an inch more than Exeter's. However the 8 inch gun fired a 250 lb shell while the 11 inch guns of Graf Spee fired a much heavier and destructive shell of 661 lb. Exeter was effectively a cut down and updated Cumberland design and Cumberland would have suffered similar levels of damage if pitted against Graf Spee although with two more guns than Exeter she might have been able to achieve more hits. The Germans did believe that Graf Spee's armour could keep out 8 inch shells and were somewhat discomfited to discover that it couldn't. HMS Belfast was designed with 4.5 inch armour on the belt to withstand 8 inch cruiser gunfire.

However, had Graf Spee ventured out against Ajax and Achilles (with a total of 12 working guns) and the fresh HMS Cumberland with her eight 8 inch, it does seem likely that she would have come off badly, probably running out of ammunition in the process.

Colin
Logged

raflaunches

  • Guest
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2012, 07:04:39 PM »

After reading Norman Friedman's excellent book 'British cruisers' and his book on the Royal Navy, 'Nelson to Vanguard' I'm sure that it mentioned somewhere that 1inch of armour was enough to stop a 8inch shell  :o below a certain distance (can't remember exactly at the moment), even I thought that was a bit of an exaggeration but the Counties were designed to go up against other 8inch heavy cruisers so her 4inch armour must have been enough to stop anything smaller or of the same size (or sometimes bigger, Cumberland suffered a direct hit by a 9.4inch shell at Dakar which only caused a ruptured steam pipe).
After watching BBC 2's Time Watch documentary about the Battle of the River Plate a few months ago I was very annoyed that they got so much of their info wrong, not even a mention of the Cumberland and very little credit given to the Exeter >>:-(.
Just annoys me so much that the BBC shows these documentaries without properly checking all the facts first, or only showing one side of the story.  Langsdorff was an honorable gentleman, sailor and had immense respect for the Royal Navy cruisers he was up against and its a shame that the full story was not told.
Okay, rant over, breathe in...

Nick B   
Logged

John W E

  • I see no ships !!
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8,503
  • Location: South shields
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2012, 07:14:42 PM »

Hi there

I think this may be another topic where we could talk ourselves round in circles, but, I think we have to contend with the known facts and one of them is:

Out of 190 x 8 inch shells which HMS Exeter fired at Graf Spee, only 3 or 4 of them did any real damage.  The return fire of 11 inch shells from Graf Spee to Exeter  - approximately 50 of them I think - did a lot more damage with a lot more accuracey.  However, this leads one to think that the Germans - along with their radar assisted gun were far better trained in 'gunnery' because on paper 3 light cruisers should have easily overwhelmed the Graf Spee - but - history has shown that they didnt.  It was though actually the use of deception which dictated the outcome of the battle at the end.
aye
john

Logged

Bryan Young

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,894
  • Location: Whitley Bay
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #28 on: January 29, 2012, 07:38:53 PM »

Raising the Graf Spee...why? In my experience the thick yellow mud that's thick (dense) enough to swallow a Battlecruiser wholesale
should be left to get on with the job. There's not really much left to raise anyway. let it remain in peace, but some sort of "monument" could be erected. BY.
Logged
Notes from a simple seaman

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2012, 08:10:36 PM »

The resistance of armour plating is a very complex subject. It's not only thickness that counts, it is also the angle at which the oncoming shell strikes it and the ability of the shell to 'bite' into the plate at oblique angles without simply bouncing off. That is why on some ships the armoured belt was angled in towards the centre of the ship (Rodney & Nelson for example) to increase its effective thickness against an impacting shell. Similar techniques were also applied to the armour on gun turrets.

Before battle ranges opened up at the beginning of the 19th century it was expected that shells would follow an almost horizontal trajectory which is why many pre WW1 'protected' cruisers had relatively thin armoured decks which sloped down from amidships to meet the unprotected hull side a little below the waterline. The thinking was that incoming shells would then be deflected up and away from the ship's vitals without penetrating. In some cases this meant protecting the underside of the bridge to avoid giving the captain an unpleasant surprise!

Colin
Logged

bikerdude666

  • Guest
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #30 on: January 30, 2012, 04:49:24 AM »

No I certainly would not dig up a war grave,and on the whole I agree that as such they should never be disturbed.Nor should the Titanic have been plundered as such,although I do believe they were right to find the wreck and show the world,but leave the artefacts where they are.
Getting back to the Graf Spee however,as far as I am aware she is not a war grave,as Captain Langsdorff , a person who cared for his crew,gave the order for her to be scuttled to save any further loss of life.Again, when Graf Spee came into the River Plate after the battle with our Cruisers, Ajax,Achillies and Exeter, the bodies of those killed were brought ashore and given a proper funeral,at which the British prisoners of war,who were on board Graf Spee during the battle,attended to a man..without any pressure,to pay their respects to the fallen Geman Crew who had treated them so fairly.

I did forget that there wouldn't have been any crew left on board, so not like digging up a war grave, though I do have to say I don't see the point in raising it. Don't they have problems enough trying to keep already preserved ships in good condition, what would they do with whats left of the Graf Spee? Maybe build a warehouse and keep it in there like the mary rose....  %)

Only if the ship turns turtle and they fall out or sometimes if they are blown off by a magazine explosion although in that case usually just the roof tends to get blown off - see the wreck of HMS Invincible.

Graf Spee had only a few feet of water under her when she was scuttled and just settled on the muddy bottom. She had also shot away a large proportion of her ammunition so there was less to explode than there might otherwise have been.

Colin

I didn't realise the water there was so shallow, if it didn't have far to sink then I suppose it wouldn't really have a chance to roll over.


I find all this talk very interesting, I like learning about facts, but when faced with hundreds of pages of small print telling every detail, I tend to get bored quickly and put a film on instead (which reminds me I must get some more naval war films)
Logged

farrow

  • Guest
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #31 on: January 30, 2012, 12:10:00 PM »

Talking of what a German 11" shell would do to a County class, the Norfolk had a narrow escape when a 11" shell from Scharnhorst hit her aft. She was lucky as hit her just below deck level went straight straight across and out the other side with out exploding, but it cleanly cut out the deck above, it looked like some one had used a gas axe to cut out a 3ft wide section from one side to the other, considering the Scharnhorst and Graf Spee both had the same main gun.
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,171
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #32 on: January 30, 2012, 01:09:53 PM »

Quote
considering the Scharnhorst and Graf Spee both had the same main gun.

Same calibre certainly but apparently not the same gun at all. Those fitted to the Scharnhorst and Gnesienau had better ballistic characteristics and also superior shells I believe.

Colin
Logged

bbdave

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 258
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #33 on: March 30, 2012, 08:08:51 AM »

I know of a silk/satin cusion cover presented to one of the officers of Graf Spee it is black with wording in silver i think as i remember it was presented on completion of some kreigsmarine tactical school i have a picture somewhere when i find it i'll scan and post it

Dave
Logged

lilgoth

  • Heavy Metal pirate
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 51
  • Location: Lichfield - South Staffs
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #34 on: March 30, 2012, 07:49:43 PM »

i think the Graf Spee could be raised...it wouldnt be easy and would probs involve digging out of the mud first
moving her would open up the shipping ( as she is still classed as a shipping hazard i belive )
also would provide a good museam. its armour is still relativly intact although no idea how corroded her insides are

the graf spe was armed with the 28 cm C/28 naval gun but Scharnhorst had the 28 cm SK C/34
the difference is barrel length ( 28 vs 34 calibers ) the longer barrel would have increased muzzle velocity ( the speed the speed the projectile leaves the barrel )
the Scharnhorst also fired larger and heavier armour penatrating shells  ( 300kg on the Deutschland class vs 336kg on the Scharnhorst )

tidbit of info
the rear turret from Gneisenau remains completly intact in Norway as part of a shore battery
trying to find it in google maps :P
Logged
The Cake Is A Lie

The Cake Is A Lie

The Cake Is A Lie

Alexandr

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #35 on: December 01, 2012, 09:37:14 PM »

Logged

Richtea

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,093
  • Location: South Yorkshire
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2012, 12:42:54 PM »

Great set of pictures Alexandr,
thank's for posting them.
Regards
Richard  :-))
Logged
SI VIS PACEM,
PARA BELLUM

Stormbringer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 437
  • Location: S.Queensferry Scotland
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #37 on: December 02, 2012, 04:49:52 PM »

good set of photo's  :-))
Logged

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 625
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: Graf Spee photos
« Reply #38 on: December 02, 2012, 08:13:42 PM »

From what my elder brother told me , in the late 1960,s/70's, Graffe Spee gunnery radar was kept in HMS Collingwood. But talking of vessels homing in for the kill such as Cumberland, Norfolk was proceeding there at max speed as well, my father who was an ERA aboard at the time, tells me that her boiler safety valves where screwed down and he swears he saw the boilers pulsating, not needed to say she achieved her record speed.
Logged
Pages: 1 [2]   Go Up