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Author Topic: static or dynamic dive?  (Read 2984 times)

bikerdude666

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static or dynamic dive?
« on: October 28, 2011, 07:00:33 PM »

So I'm preparing to try and do my first sub, but I'm lost as to whether to try static or dynamic dive? Is dynamic easier?

I'm looking at kits on the internet, these 2 have been recommended so far:   

http://www.frontiernet.net/~bwelch/

http://modelluboot.de/KITS/VII/VIIc.html

The Dave Welch kit is currently the favourite, but I'm a bit concerned that this might be a bit complicated, and I've not had a reply from him.

The 2nd link, i can't really see what the kit consists of or what extra parts I'd need.

Has anyone got any advice on the best way to approach a 1st sub build. I really want to build this sub as fully submersible, but I'm starting to get a bit worried about how complicated it will be.
Is it very much harder to make you own system? (I think MMB make custom WTC's, but what else would i need to buy)

Sorry but I have no idea what parts I'd need so if someone could spare 10 minutes and write a list of parts and explanations for a complete dullard it would be most appreciated.

(forgot to mention, money is a factor in this build, i can only spare about 50 every 4 weeks for this.)

Thanks.
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andyn

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2011, 07:35:31 PM »

Dynamic diving is definately easier to do, as it's your first sub how about one of our Sub-Sonics? They're a perfect first model.

We do make dynamic dive WTC's, basically in any length and diameter up to 110mm diameter. We can supply anything you want with it, but basically all you'll need to get it going is a boat (obviously ;) ) and some electrickery, namely a motor, esc, servos and radio. Micro servos we can supply. To give you an idea on costs, We've got a customer currently who is having a WTC for a Revell Gato, 50cm tube, 68mm diameter, two motor mounts, end caps, waterjet cut radio tray and two pushrod exits. This unit is 60.

Andy :-)
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john s 2

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2011, 07:55:00 PM »

The big problem down my way is the clarity of the water.If you cant see the bottom, then there is a danger of getting stuck on the bottom using dynamic. I think youve got to see what your sailing in and make your decision accordingly.John.
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bikerdude666

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2011, 08:22:45 PM »

Well hopefully I'll be joining wicksteed MBC, and i hope they allow model subs. If not then the local lake is very muddy!



So, sorry this will seem stupid to most people, but a dynamic dive, uses the dive planes to submerge and surface? So inside the WTC, there will be, a battery pack, 2 motors, a servo for the rudder, 1 servo for the rear dive planes, and 1 servo for the front dive planes, and of course an ESC and a receiver?

I've looked at the subsonic, but its not really my sort of thing, prefer WWII models (not necessarily exact scale).

Starting to think home made dynamic dive might be the way to go.

MMB, would your micro motors be suitable? (1/72 Revell Type VIIc) or would the RS360 5 pole motors be better? Thanks, just need to try and get prices and decide whats the best route to go.
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Mankster

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2011, 08:43:50 PM »

The Sub sonic makes a great first model, especially if you have challanging waters to sail in. If pretty cheap, just about everything included and performs pretty well. Also theres little to break off unlike the plastic sub conversions. Once you have got the hand of 'flying' a sub under water can try your hand a more complicated scale static dive sub. Your a little too far off yor you could have come to the London dive in next sunday and try your hand controlling a sub (nothing to get stuck in when your sailing in a pool)

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=31998.0

andyn

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2011, 09:13:29 PM »

So, sorry this will seem stupid to most people, but a dynamic dive, uses the dive planes to submerge and surface? So inside the WTC, there will be, a battery pack, 2 motors, a servo for the rudder, 1 servo for the rear dive planes, and 1 servo for the front dive planes, and of course an ESC and a receiver?

MMB, would your micro motors be suitable? (1/72 Revell Type VIIc) or would the RS360 5 pole motors be better? Thanks, just need to try and get prices and decide whats the best route to go.

Thats right, although most models I've seen just use the rear planes to dive with the front fixed. You can also use a leveller if in murky water, it helps stabilise the boat a lot.

A pair of micro motors would be perfect for it on 6v, which also gives me the excuse to get on and make a micro motor sized watertight mount... ;)

Andy.
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bikerdude666

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2011, 09:15:34 PM »

I can see the advantage of the subsonic regards to not having much to break off, but i really cant afford over 100 for something that is essentially just a test.

Also what frequency is used in subs? Can it be anything apart from 2.4Ghz or is there a specific one thats used for subs?
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bikerdude666

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2011, 09:37:38 PM »

Thats right, although most models I've seen just use the rear planes to dive with the front fixed. You can also use a leveller if in murky water, it helps stabilise the boat a lot.

A pair of micro motors would be perfect for it on 6v, which also gives me the excuse to get on and make a micro motor sized watertight mount... ;)

Andy.

In which case I think I'm decided, I will do my own dynamic dive system. I won't be placing an order until after christmas as I'm not getting the kit until christmas. Then I suppose you'll be needing the internal dimensions of the model. If I email/PM you a list of the bits I think I need, could you add anything that I've missed and let me know of which bits you can't supply?


One last thing, if the model relies on the dive planes alone to make it submerge, what keeps it ballasted and afloat? A mixture of lead in the bottom of the hull and polystyrene/expanding foam? I guess the vent holes still need cutting out.

(sorry I realise most of these questions probably seem stupid to you but I really have no idea how it all works)
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andyn

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2011, 10:11:02 PM »

In which case I think I'm decided, I will do my own dynamic dive system. I won't be placing an order until after christmas as I'm not getting the kit until christmas. Then I suppose you'll be needing the internal dimensions of the model. If I email/PM you a list of the bits I think I need, could you add anything that I've missed and let me know of which bits you can't supply?


One last thing, if the model relies on the dive planes alone to make it submerge, what keeps it ballasted and afloat? A mixture of lead in the bottom of the hull and polystyrene/expanding foam? I guess the vent holes still need cutting out.

(sorry I realise most of these questions probably seem stupid to you but I really have no idea how it all works)

I will need to know the internal size of the model and the length of tank you want. What model will you be getting?

Pm me what you need, and I'll see what I can do :-)

The tank provides a large amount of lift, the hull itself floods so the only weight there is the hull itself, batteries bring it down a little more then extra lead to trim. hopefully no foam needed. You ballast the boat down so its just lower than the scale waterline, then the planes and forward motion do the rest to slip it under. Stop the motor(s) and the boat pops back up again.

Andy :-)
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Subculture

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2011, 10:17:41 PM »

A dynamic diver relies on the force of the hydrovanes to submerge the boat, whilst driven along.

For a Type VII, you will need to ballast the boat down to decks awash if you're to get the boat to submerge, and you will need a fair turn of speed. It's not really ideally suited to this form of diving IMO.

Buoyancy is generally provided by the cylinder inside the boat. Some people add extra foam inside the model, but it isn't always necessary. Lead in the belly for stability

BTW, with a bit of imagination, a sub sonic could be adapted to look very similar to some of the midget submarines of WWII- perhaps a cross between a Delphin or a Schwertwal. Maybe a Schwertphin!  :}





bikerdude666

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2011, 05:59:28 PM »

A dynamic diver relies on the force of the hydrovanes to submerge the boat, whilst driven along.

For a Type VII, you will need to ballast the boat down to decks awash if you're to get the boat to submerge, and you will need a fair turn of speed. It's not really ideally suited to this form of diving IMO.



Why will this model be harder to get to dive? Not questioning you, just wondering why it should be different to others.
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Mankster

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Re: static or dynamic dive?
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2011, 06:06:09 PM »

The planes on a Type Viic are small and its a long boat realative to the width. Unless you plan on doing 'crash dives' - runnng at full speed and then fullplanes down- you will need to ballast the the boath down quite a bit. This means if you take on a small amount of water or you go a little too deep, tangle in some weeds or loose radio reception, you may not have enough bouyancy to pop back up. The Subsonic would make a better dynamic diver - very little forward speed needed to get under and easy to keep depth at slow speed with that size boat realtive to dive plane size.
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