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Author Topic: OTW Vanguard help  (Read 80409 times)

U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #400 on: April 01, 2012, 07:50:50 PM »

Depends on how much water you move through the thrusters...a Volvo FL10 screenwash pump will pump an awful lot of water.
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Rich

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #401 on: April 02, 2012, 07:46:53 PM »

The problem with using pumps is that they only have small outlets, and there's a limit to how much thrust you can generate through a small pipe. A prop inside a tube is the best solution, but the outlet is difficult to conceal on a scale model.

I think a larger rudder, or a clip on extension to the existing item is the answer. If you want to try a pump, it's worth pointing out that many of them can live quite happily in the wet areas.

He may also find some of the details in this link interesting- http://s181686668.onlinehome.us/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=9621&p=55733&hilit=thrusters#p55733

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #402 on: April 02, 2012, 08:50:06 PM »

Thanks for the link Andy I had seen the Akula water pump before along with the video have not seen the Trafalgar Video though that was a nice video and re-enforced my thinking of extending the lower rudder on the Vanguard using perspex I have managed to get an extra 5- 8 degrees of movement on the Vanguard rudder so will give that a try before making an extension for the rudder.

Rich thanks for the info on the Volvo screen washer pump Father-in-law drives a Volvo if he find me using a Volvo part in a sub he will have a dickyfit  {-) O0 {-)

Regards Mark
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Davy1

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #403 on: April 03, 2012, 10:10:12 AM »

Yes. Worth trying a clip on lower rudder, I would say.

One thing I also found with the R class (which was difficult to turn) is to ballast the boat a bit stern down and this improves the turn. I can only attribute this to the lower rudder then being more in the water flow and in less turbulent flow (from the hull)

For use in small ponds at Exhibitions, I also developed an external bow thruster unit (The magazine title was "The Strap on Bow Thruster"  %))

Best not to go there but I can dig out a copy if you want.

David
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #404 on: April 08, 2012, 03:39:42 PM »

One point that hasn't been mentioned- where did you site the centre of gravity on your model? For most Nuke boats with hulls of revolution, you can calculate the best point by dividing the length by 2.5. Take the answer (in the case of the Vanguard it's about two feet) and measure back from the tip of the bow. On the Vanguard it comes out at just past the second missile hatch, so that should be where the middle of the ballast tank is situated. If your C.G is forward of this, the boat will be very stable but less responsive to pitch and yaw, if it's aft the boat will be more responsive, but may be a little twitchy or unstable- experimentation is the key here. If you've ever flown aeroplanes, these principles are the same as having an aeroplane that is nose or tail heavy.

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #405 on: April 08, 2012, 05:20:32 PM »

Interesting, Andy.

But I often see this comparison with aircraft being quoted e.g the importance of C of  G etc.

It is actually not a very helpful analogy. We are better off comparing submarines with airships, where static forces are more important than dynamic ones.

I guess that aircraft (rather than airship!) modellers predominate - hence this rather misleading comparison.

David
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merriman

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #406 on: April 08, 2012, 05:44:02 PM »

Agreed. In the area of dynamic and static stability issues (as well as where the control surface moments originate), the airship-submarine analogy is preferred over the airplane (heavier-than-air)-submarine analogy; particularly when getting you mind around the importance of the longitudinal and vertical positions of the vehicles center of gravity, center of buoyancy and center of rotation.

Grab your kids Helium filled balloon, tape a penny on its bottom, and kick it around in the living room a while with the central-air on. Study its response to a chaotic environment -- you'll get an equivalents worth of knowledge otherwise acquired by sitting in on a few Newtonian physics classes.

David
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #407 on: April 08, 2012, 09:25:39 PM »

I used the aeroplane analogy because most modelmakers have some prior experience in that area. Dirigibles are even more niche than subs, although I did consider comparing a sub to a model rocket, but again a little unusual.

I've always felt the boundaries are rather blurred, if you consider submarine boats like Graham Hawkes Deepflight submersibles which look far more like an aeroplane than a Zeppelin.

For those who wish to delve deeper into the theory, there is plenty of reference material out there on statics, hydrodynamics etc. and it all makes for fantastic bedtime reading.

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #408 on: April 08, 2012, 11:17:28 PM »

I have Norbert Bruggen's book on Submarine Technology. I can only understand 10% of it. What other sites are there that may explain what is in there to simple people like me? (crayon drawings are helpful)
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #409 on: April 09, 2012, 08:27:03 AM »

Ahh, but which 10%?

U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #410 on: April 09, 2012, 09:16:59 AM »

Tom, I'm surprised at you! You're already a member of the finest model submarine forum there is....what more could you wish for?


www.theassociationofmodelsubmariners.com




Rich
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #411 on: April 09, 2012, 05:25:48 PM »

hhmm a few more tips their especialy the C of G and C of B I am pretty certain that the ballance is now correct maybe a little more work needed on the submerged level with a bit more foam but the main thing is that the glitching of the servo`s has compleatley gone away so I am happy will be at New Brighton this Wednesday weather permiting possibly with an extended rudder to try

Thanks again for all the great tips

Regards Mark.
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #412 on: April 09, 2012, 06:47:52 PM »

Glad to hear the radio troubles seem to be rectified.

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #413 on: April 10, 2012, 02:33:08 PM »

Glad to have sorted it as well Andy am now planing to run the Trafalgar with the FC16 radio as well have made a good start on the Traf and might put up a build log on here if anyone wants to have a look. plus I might be able to get a few tips as well  O0

Regards Mark.
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thegrimreaper

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #414 on: April 23, 2012, 03:46:05 PM »

R.I.P. Vanguard drive coupling destroyed itself on sunday  <:( <:( am now on the look out for a supplier of solid couplings 6mm x 4mm any help appreciated

Regards Mark.
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U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #415 on: April 23, 2012, 04:16:05 PM »

Mark, get a diagram done of what you need and ask Nigel E ever so nicely if he would knock one up for you.


Rich
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Rich

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #416 on: May 08, 2012, 02:43:39 PM »

Vanguard back on the water today after my rebuild of the WTC to make the rear tube the same size as the front one I think now though she is sitting a bit to high in the water and needs a bit more weight in the bottom plus the weight needs to be a bit further forward as she is reluctant to dive taking a long while plus she submerges tail first even though theire is a lot of blue foam in her






 
Video will be on youtube soon

Regards Mark.
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U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #417 on: May 08, 2012, 03:01:50 PM »

She looks really good mate...really good.



Rich
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Rich

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~~~~~~~  "Motorflotes need love too...."  ~~~~~~~

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thegrimreaper

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #418 on: May 08, 2012, 03:29:22 PM »

Thanks Rich been a bit of a slog with this one but getting there I even let the wife have a play with the Akula I was that pleased with the Vanguard  O0 {-)

Mark.
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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #419 on: May 08, 2012, 04:19:06 PM »

I agree- looks too high at the bow

U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #420 on: May 08, 2012, 04:25:51 PM »

Thanks Rich been a bit of a slog with this one but getting there I even let the wife have a play with the Akula I was that pleased with the Vanguard  O0 {-)

Mark.

Wow...is that what they call true love?   ;D


Rich
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Rich

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thegrimreaper

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #421 on: May 08, 2012, 06:29:04 PM »

Yup it must be Rich ha ha

as promised the video http://youtu.be/dmTMP91hi20

also she has a bit more lead in her now ready for a retest on Sunday

Mark.
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U-33

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #422 on: May 08, 2012, 06:53:01 PM »

Very, very nice mate, looks just like a boat heading off on a patrol....very realistic. Was that maximum rudder? Bit tight getting round in that pool...



Rich
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Rich

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #423 on: May 08, 2012, 07:35:39 PM »

Turning should improve a lot once submerged, probably best to run it decks awash when on the surface in a small pool- get some of that upper rudder earning its keep.

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Re: OTW Vanguard help
« Reply #424 on: May 09, 2012, 09:27:02 AM »

Rudder was never deflected to full except for emergancy avoidance of the wall got a secret weapon on the sub that is assisting with the steering she turns quite well now and will turn compleately in about 10ft  realy should have done some video of her zig-zaging down the length of the pond was quite immpresive for a long boat. would put a pic up of my secret weapon but just like the pump jet drive its TOP SECRET  O0 O0 ;D and it needs a bit more work to to optomize and improve the look


Mark.
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