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Author Topic: Universal & Flexible couplings  (Read 46780 times)

Norseman

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #51 on: December 19, 2011, 12:32:59 am »

Hi All

From a newbies point of view it would be helpful if someone could post up pics of the various couplings available.
Thanks guys - now back to lurking  :}

Dave
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oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #52 on: December 19, 2011, 12:34:33 am »

MODEL BOAT UNIVERSAL JOINTS

I can hear the voices emanating form the work sheds and shops again …….. ”universals! Which, what , how,  why?”
  This is a subject that many tend to gloss over and a few ponder. It’s a topic I don’t think I’ve seen/heard anyone delve into, why do we use them, what is the theory behind them, what s the best to use for my application. With this tutorial I’m going to attempt to clear up some of the above questions about these mysterious little necessaries in the hulls of our vessels.

DEFINITION

   What is a universal joint by definition?
A universal joint, universal coupling, U joint, Cardan joint, Hardy-Spicer joint, or Hooke's joint is a joint or coupling in a rigid rod that allows the rod to 'bend' in any direction, and is commonly used in shafts that transmit rotary motion. It consists of a pair of hinges located close together, oriented at 90° to each other, connected by a cross shaft.

HISTORY

   The Universal joint is recorded to have been invented by an Italian mathematician by the name of Gerolamo Cardano in 1545.
  In 1678 and English man wrote of universal joint for Cardano’s device in his book called ‘Helioscopes’. Since then the names Cardan(o) and Hooke have been linked to the universal joint device. The Hooke or Cardan joint was initially used as a single element in a shaft with a an angular displacement and resulting non uniform rotating speed across the joint. Hooke proposed using a second Hooke joint on the same shaft, shifted by 90 degrees, to eliminate this variation in rotating speed. Although it wasn’t 100% successful, it did reduce the rotational speed problem. A later CV or constant velocity joint eliminated the speed difference entirely.


  In model boating, most off us have used a single universal (Hooke, Cardan) joint to connect our motors and prop shafts. In many cases this is attended by excessive noise and vibration with queries as to why? With a single Cardan joint, the two shaft ends have to be perfectly aligned. Any discrepancy in alignment between the ends of the shaft will cause binding with an accompanying vibration and noise. A single Cardan joint can allow one shaft to have a slight (usually no more than 15 degrees) angular misalignment. However, the two ends of the shaft must be perfectly aligned as the center block on the single Cardan joint won’t allow for horizontal or vertical displacement. Only a double Cardan joint can allow for vertical or horizontal displacement to some extent.
  Shaft joints could be can be offset in four different ways. (see below):
 


  Any one of the above discrepancies in alignment will cause noise and vibration when our model operates.  In order to get a truly aligned shaft, these discrepancies have to be taken out of the alignment of the two shafts. Putting in a coupling shaft with two Cardan joints will compensate for some of this, however, the closer two shafts can be aligned, the quieter, smoother running the motor/shaft combination will be and the less amps the motor will draw.
  Automobiles, at least the older ones with rear wheel drive, use a drive shaft with two Cardan joints. Like our boats, they wouldn’t work very well with on Cardan joint. Front wheel drive cars use constant velocity universals, a different animal from the Cardan joint.

SHAFT ALIGNMENT

  On larger shafts dial test indicators, verniers and feeler gauges are used to set alignments of shafts accurately. That isn’t really possible on our small cramped quarters, so other options have to be looked at.
  The simplest, but not necessarily the most accurate method of shaft alignment is visual alignment of the two shafts, taking into consideration the four directions a shaft can be out of alignment. This method will certainly get you close enough into the ball park to allow the use of a double Cardan shaft to take out most of the differences between the prop shaft and motor.
  A more accurate method would be to slide a piece of firm tubing, such as brass, over the motor shaft and prop shaft. This will hold the motor and prop in alignment until you have the motor mount permanently fastened in its proper location. Remove the motor from the mount and install the double Cardan shaft. (note: we will look at motor mounts in a future section of this tutorial).
  Another method of checking alignment of motor and prop shaft is to install the motor and connect it to the prop shaft as is normal. Allow the motor mount to be adjustable as to position, or allow the motor to be adjustable inside the mount. Set up an electric supply to the boat motor with an ammeter in series with the motor leads. Bring the motor up to a moderate speed and watch the amp load on the meter. Adjust the motor position to get the lowest amp reading (you’ll note quite a change in motor noise as you do this; it gets quieter as you get closer to the correct alignment). When satisfied that you have the lowest amp reading and noise level, fasten the motor into position and recheck. This method can provide a very accurate alignment for our small vessels with a minimum of hassle.

MODEL UNIVERSAL JOINTS

  What’s available for model boats?  Most use the single Cardan Huco joint for model boat applications. However, as you’ve seen above this is not always adequate. Two Huco joints back to back or on the ends of a shaft 90 degrees offset will work. Huco also make a conversion to take two of their Cardan joints with a center piece to make a proper double Cardan shaft. These can work very well. Graupner offer a similar item but in a slightly small size that is adequate for most vessels.
 Dumas make a nice simple little unit consisting of two brass ends with a preformed nylon wishbone. This gives the double Cardan effect with a 90 degree offset. They’re reasonably priced and simple to install. The design of the ends allows the wishbone to move and take up any differences in distance between the motor and prop shaft.
  As has been pictured above, there is also the rubber coupling. These can work well in vessels with prop sizes less than 1 ½” diameter. They are quiet, when properly set up, and easy to install.




Graupner double Cardan joint



Huco single Cardan joint





Dumas double Cardan joint



scratch built double Cardan style with dog bone

I hope this gives some insight into model boat universal joints and the correct way to go to get them to work properly. I all answer any questions I can.

John






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oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #53 on: December 19, 2011, 12:40:11 am »

Martin:

 I'm trying to add more images to this tutorial via "ADD IMAGE TO POST" and it doesn't seem to want to let me do it. Any suggestions

Thanks

John

No worries, problem found.

John
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Norseman

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #54 on: December 19, 2011, 12:46:34 am »

Hi John

this is interesting and I was lookingfor something like a lesson too - so thanks.
Just reading elsewhere about Huo being speed rated too - that's what got me
interested. Hope you post more up.

Dave
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oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2011, 12:55:24 am »

Hi John

this is interesting and I was lookingfor something like a lesson too - so thanks.
Just reading elsewhere about Huo being speed rated too - that's what got me
interested. Hope you post more up.

Dave

Thanks Dave. Glad you found it interesting
I'm going to add more. May have to wait till after Christmas though.

John

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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #56 on: December 19, 2011, 12:59:43 am »

John,

Thank you.  O0 O0 O0
Was also able to save it as a Word document complete with the pics  :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))
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oldiron

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #57 on: December 19, 2011, 01:03:00 am »

Hi all, I raised the issue on another thread last week as I noticed during some tests that the Huco couplings were very noisy, no they were not misaligned !. I am waiting for some bright engineer to design a C/V joint like we use on cars, or even some company with skilled designers should be able to do it . Any ideas anybody?.

Mick:

 You may be interested in what I just put on this thread:

http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34327.msg341675;topicseen#msg341675

John
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oldiron

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #58 on: December 19, 2011, 01:07:06 am »

 With regard to HUCO couplings and RPM's, don't forget this web site (http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/529891.pdf) gives specs relative to industrial joint applications. Our red model boat joints aren't shown on the charts on this sheet.
 Industrial RPM's tend to be lower for a given application than our model marine applications.

John
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oldiron

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #59 on: December 19, 2011, 01:10:19 am »

 With regard to destruction of HUCO, and other u joints at speed, don't forget vibration is the biggest destroyer of U joints. The biggest cause of vibration is misalignment of the driven and drive shafts.

john
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irishcarguy

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #60 on: December 19, 2011, 05:15:41 pm »

Thank you John, this is very informative, please continue. I assume you already know that we in the auto trade run into the problem of the sliding joints on the propshafts (driveshafts in North America)being installed out of alignment after being separated for repair. If this happens the vibration is horrendous & can wreck the shaft in a very short amount of time. I would love to see some manufacturer come up with a C/V joint for our drivelines.(I will be away over Xmas but will catch up when I get back) Mick B. 
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Mick B.

Subculture

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #61 on: December 19, 2011, 07:29:53 pm »

A company in the states called 'small parts' used to supply miniature CV joints. They weren't cheap, and they don't seem to list them now- perhaps they didn't sell well.
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irishcarguy

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #62 on: December 19, 2011, 07:49:34 pm »

Hi John I think we are popping back & forth between two threads which is O/K as it exposes the subject to a wider audience. It is certainly a subject that needs a good discussion, I just wonder how many  models out there have misaligned shafts/couplings without the owners actually having any idea that they are wrong. I think your thread will help a lot  to make members more aware of the potential problems that may be affecting their drivelines John. Mick B.
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Mick B.

oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #63 on: December 19, 2011, 07:52:22 pm »

Thanks Micjk and Raaarty, trying to help out where I can.

John
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oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #64 on: December 19, 2011, 07:54:31 pm »

Thank you John, this is very informative, please continue. I assume you already know that we in the auto trade run into the problem of the sliding joints on the propshafts (driveshafts in North America)being installed out of alignment after being separated for repair. If this happens the vibration is horrendous & can wreck the shaft in a very short amount of time. I would love to see some manufacturer come up with a C/V joint for our drivelines.(I will be away over Xmas but will catch up when I get back) Mick B. 

 I ran into that with my 1966 Chevelle. Put the drive shaft back and the vibration was amazing. Turned it  a quarter and it settled down. Never had that problem before though.

John
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tobyker

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #65 on: December 19, 2011, 10:28:08 pm »

I still maintain that for our purposes it is loony to use a UJ that will tolerate no axial (I think) misalignment. I think there's a lot to be said for a pin and disc arrangement so there's a air gap between the motor shaft and the driven prop shaft. After all the Huco type of UJ is primarily used in car drives where the driven shaft can, and has to move as the axle or wheel moves. In the case of our shafts we don't have to accomodate movement of the driven shaft.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #66 on: December 19, 2011, 10:42:49 pm »

I too have been unhappy with the performance of conventional couplings so wherever possible I prefer to use belt drive which effectively decouples the shaft from the motor. Of course this is only really practical in scale type models where only moderate power is being transmitted but in this application it is very effective and allows easy gearing down as a bonus..

Colin
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oldiron

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #67 on: December 20, 2011, 12:04:04 am »

Hi John I think we are popping back & forth between two threads which is O/K as it exposes the subject to a wider audience. It is certainly a subject that needs a good discussion, I just wonder how many  models out there have misaligned shafts/couplings without the owners actually having any idea that they are wrong. I think your thread will help a lot  to make members more aware of the potential problems that may be affecting their drivelines John. Mick B.

 Mick:

 You're quite right about many model boaters falling into the trap of using a single U Joint and expecting it to compensate for misalignment. I've seen it in just about all the model boats in our club, and many others besides. I've built up a number of cars over the years and one wouldn't think of only using a single Cardan joint on a drive  shaft, however, model boaters do it regularly.
 I hope the write up gets some people thinking about what they are doing.

John
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oldiron

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #68 on: December 20, 2011, 12:11:07 am »

I still maintain that for our purposes it is loony to use a UJ that will tolerate no axial (I think) misalignment. I think there's a lot to be said for a pin and disc arrangement so there's a air gap between the motor shaft and the driven prop shaft. After all the Huco type of UJ is primarily used in car drives where the driven shaft can, and has to move as the axle or wheel moves. In the case of our shafts we don't have to accomodate movement of the driven shaft.

 U joints can and do accommadate axial misalignment up to 15 degrees. It cannot be done with one U joint as most model boaters do. One needs two Cardan joints back to back, or on the ends of the same drive shaft, and set 90 degrees apart. The Huco outfit sells the appropriate parts to make their traditional red U joint into a proper double Cardan joint that gives proper axial displacement. I'm not sure why, we as modelers, don't use the proper set up , but insist on doing half a job and then complain that it doesn't work. See this thread if you haven't already:http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=34327.msg341675;topicseen#msg341675

John
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oldiron

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #69 on: December 20, 2011, 12:29:16 am »

  For those who insist on using Huco joints, here is what you need to convert a single Huco Cardan joints to a proper double Cardan coupling. I've found several of these available on Ebay at present.

John




This is used to convert your single Huco joint to a proper double Cardan joint that will accept axial displacement and make your motor shaft set up run quieter.



This is what you have after you have installed the converter.
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andyn

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #70 on: December 20, 2011, 12:48:57 am »

Or for much less money, fit one of our silicon couplings that will never give you any such trouble as the awful red plastic ones....

Andy %)
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #71 on: December 20, 2011, 01:49:50 am »

John,

You may need to check the link couldn't get it to work.

A minimum would seem to be, two of the universal joints back to back or better still a double.
as you say why aren't we promoting doubles for boating use.

Besides the one illustrade in your 'tutorial' what other "Doubles" are available
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Norseman

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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Help With U/Joints
« Reply #73 on: December 20, 2011, 01:54:17 am »

How much less, plus postage to Oz ????
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Flexible couplings
« Reply #74 on: December 20, 2011, 01:57:09 am »

Thanks Dave  :-)) :-))
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