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Author Topic: "Model Warship Combat"  (Read 20387 times)

Martin [Admin]

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2008, 11:39:57 PM »

Is it legal in the UK?
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gribeauval

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2008, 11:44:03 PM »

Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!
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Reade Models

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2008, 12:50:40 AM »

I had to (seriously) talk a friend out of building a scale model battleship that would fire live .22 calibre rounds - and I'm not talking air guns here!

You can just imagine the corpses littering the pond side!

Malc
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2008, 06:01:24 AM »

I have a boat that used to suffer monthly abuse.
Now it seems more like an annual event. The club members have
gotten old and petrol got too expensive this year.

How the Scirocco started out.
And how she typically ended up..

I got good at water proofing, and saving electronics after a dunking.  :-))

A video someone graciously provided for me... %)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4256407603276740435&hl=en
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Philipsparker

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2008, 09:26:29 AM »

Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!

And the long answer that explains why ?

BB guns are legal. Obviously firing live amunition would be illegal and even if it wasn't, extreemly unwise ! The boats aren't armoured though so I assume it isn't going to need a particually high powered projectile to fight with.

Phil
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Proteus

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2008, 09:37:33 AM »

Is it legal in the UK?



Short answer........... NO !!!

And the long answer that explains why ?

BB guns are legal. Obviously firing live amunition would be illegal and even if it wasn't, extreemly unwise ! The boats aren't armoured though so I assume it isn't going to need a particually high powered projectile to fight with.

Phil

they use a type of BB gun the sides of the boat has  replacable panels made of very thin material so low power makes a hole in them......

Proteus
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2008, 11:04:00 AM »

BB Guns may be legal in the UK but there are still restrictions on where and when you can use them. A pond on a private estate might be OK but you wouldn't have e a hope on any publicly owned water. There is another thread on here somewhere which discussed all this in detail, last year I think. Try a search.

Colin
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Colin H

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2008, 02:41:33 PM »

I think you will find they use a kind of gas powered bb gun.

Depending on the kinetic energy produced these may require a firearms certificate and can then only be used on an approved range or for hunting purposes over approved ground.

If I remember correctly the legal limit when any kind of pellet firing gun becomes a firearm is 12 foot pounds.

Given the current attitude to guns in the UK I would suggest you give this one a miss unless you want to be the subject of a `hard arrest` by the tactical firearms unit.

Yours Colin H.
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Arrow5

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2008, 03:29:31 PM »

I`m sure Umi will be chiming here soon. She is somewhat of an expert on the American side of things in battling ships.
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BarryM

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2008, 04:43:44 PM »

It's reinvent the wheel time again.   >>:-( This subject has already been done to death on this forum and the end result hasn't chnaged.

Barry M
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Colin Bishop

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2008, 04:48:36 PM »

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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: What an awesome boating idea...
« Reply #36 on: November 15, 2008, 05:36:20 PM »

I`m sure Umi will be chiming here soon. She is somewhat of an expert on the American side of things in battling ships.

The guns are Co2 powered. The pressures are regulated to 100 psi or less.
The round size typcally range from standard bb's to 4.75mm ball bearings.
Some clubs allow up to 6mm ball bearings. In our club, the rounds are not
allowed to penetrat 50mm of pink or blue styrofoam, regardlesss of size.
Ships hulls are 0.8mm - 1.5mm balsa down to 13mm below the water line.

A red flag must be raised prior to any ships gun being charged with gas.
At that time all persons at the pond must don safety glasses.
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The long Build

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #37 on: November 15, 2008, 06:15:23 PM »

I have just purchased one of those amphibious chariot tank things, and was extremely surprised at how quickly and with some power the plastic bb's are shot out of the cannon.. if you really wanted to attach something to shoot at another ship  could not one of these be used on a boat, although as previously mentioned probably not wise to do it in a public area.

Out of curiosity has any body herd of anybody being hurt or killed at one of these warship battle days.  (in the time I have taken to write this how many people have been killed injured by cars) !!
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portside II

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2008, 02:06:30 AM »

Just a thought ,maybe Umi will be able to answer this  , but the BB's used for ammo do they float  {:-{ .
daz
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2008, 06:59:15 AM »

The bearings are copper and steel, while a lot of them end up in the boat, more than
a few end up in the water or the bushes surrounding the pond.

In the twenty years I have been playing, casualties consist of:

Numerous servos... too many to count. I personally have replaced about seven.
two rotation servos, two firing servos, and two rudder servos, and one elevation servo.
Then again, I have one servo, that has never been replaced..

Lots of Balsa and superstructure, and fiddely bits life rafts, men, 20 and 40mm guns and such.
Some boats have retired, and some like mine, just keep returning to battle.

One car windscreen and one car side window, and two truck side windows..
At one event, I called out to one of the guys, "Paul Your guns shooting too high..."
He asked How I could tell, and I said, "You just shot out the window on your truck." %)

Most of the participants have been stung by a ball bearing more than a few times.
I have seen people line up behind the big ship captains so that if any one gets hit with a large
ball bearing, it will be the guy that fired it.

The worst injury in my club was  caused by a low angle shot that ricochetted off the water, climbed, and
hit one of the captains in the forehead. I stung so badly that he dropped to his knees, and  left one heck of
a welt above his brow.


All of the participants take the good with the bad, and I have bought or sold spare parts at the pond
to keep ships running for the duration of the weekend.
 :-)
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stephenmorgret

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2008, 11:39:14 AM »

Hello,

   I've been playing for a couple of years with the Western Warship Combat Club (http:www.westernwarshipcombat.com) and I'm the one that designed the MCC-WC mentioned earlier.

   It looks like most of the rules that you have been looking at for Big Gun. There is another set of rules for 1:144 model combat called Fast Gun. This rule set is limited to BBs. As a result, you are likely to be able to use them in the UK, especially if BB guns are already legal.

Stephen Morgret
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Colin Bishop

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2008, 11:45:16 AM »

Many of the sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities. The chances of them permitting anything of this nature are zero. Same would apply to any water in proximity to a public open space or thoroughfare.
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stephenmorgret

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2008, 03:23:54 AM »

   One the subject of legality, the clubs in Australia had to deal with similar firearm rules to what you have in England. The people there actually had the police forces in each state and territory rule that the cannons and hobby are legal in their jurisdiction and not subject to the Firearms Act (text taken from http://www.ausbg.org/learn_more.html). It would probably be worth talking to them to see exactly how they did it so you can do the same.

Stephen Morgret
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Circlip

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2008, 08:52:04 AM »

Yipeeeeeeeee, time to get the old multiband CB gear out, what fun.   :-))
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Colin Bishop

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2008, 09:03:00 AM »

I don't think it would matter what the police thought although if they were to read Umi's earlier description I could make a pretty good guess! Most sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities and sailing takes place by permission, not as a right. The vast majority of them have already banned IC powered boats on public nuisance grounds so I don't think they would take kindly to a bunch of people shooting missiles at each other's boats whether they fall within the scope of the firearms act or not. Parents with kids feeding the ducks nearby might not be too keen on the idea either.

Having looked at some of the videos I am a little puzzled as to what the attraction of this particular branch of the hobby is. After all, it's hardly as if it is in any way realistic or historically accurate. Basically you've got 20th century semiscale warships fighting using Napoleonic tactics. It seem to me that underlying all this is just a desire to shoot things, in which case why bother to build the boats when you can just take potshots at squirrels instead?   :}

Speaking personally, I think it's far more interesting when an attempt is made to recreate historical naval occasions as is done by the Portsmouth Model Boat Display team. Lots of bangs, smoke and accurately modelled ships sinking but perfectly safe for the large crowds which thoroughly enjoy the show and don't need eye protection!

Colin
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andyn

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2008, 05:00:34 PM »

That's more what I had in mind (the bottom one) wondered if anyone did those types of boats.

I'm off to see where I can get a few thousand quid for one...

...errmm nan, hi, I want to build a galleon with some pyrotechnics in it, can I borrow some money? Thanks....
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BigGun Rob

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2008, 09:18:17 PM »

Greetings from the other side of the pond! I'm a Big Gun enthusiast, and although some people here may feel that this subject has been covered in full already, I think there's a room for just a little more on it. So, if you will indulge me...

First, on the subject of what the attraction is. Well, it's not just a desire to shoot things. RC warship combat is a team sport (usually Axis vs Allies). The ships are meant to look like the real thing from about 20 feet away, and rather than get into the whole "what is scale, anyway?" debate, let me just say that I personally love detail, and I've researched the Bismarck for 4 years, during my build. He will launch this winter. Not all combat enthusiasts care about scale details that much, but it's becoming more prevalent in my club.

As for realism: It depends on what you mean by realism. Trust me, the subject is very complex. There are two main "flavors" of RC warship combat. One is fought strictly with bbs at gunwale-to-gunwale ranges, and the other is "Big Gun," which uses varying calibers of ammo, and varying thicknesses of armor, depending upon the scale prototype on which the ship is modeled. In some ways, yes - many of the engagements are Napoleonic, broadside-to-broadside, so it's not lobbing shells "over the horizon" as one would ordinarily think of WWII naval combat. On the other hand, there were sea battles in WWII that were fought at such close ranges that battleship main guns could not be brought to bear. Some were fought by searchlight. Some of our skippers are crack shots, and can hit another ship from 5 or 10 meters out, while others need to run in close.

I really think it would be good for you to attend an event and try your hand at the guns, before you judge. I will say that every person I've seen try it has gotten hooked, to one degree or another, and whether that's good or bad, it is a huge amount of fun.

On whether it's legal (or could be legal) in the UK to have RC warship combat events: As Stephen pointed out, the same conditions existed in Australia, prior to the determined efforts of a small group of skippers who wanted to get permission to hold combat events, and now there are more Big Gun captains in Australia than in the United States. By the way, the guns do fire steel balls, but at such a low velocity that rounds bounce off beyond a range of 10 meters yards or so. Compare this with a standard bb gun, and yes - you need eye protection - but you need that whenever small, fast moving objects are in the air. I accidentally shot myself in the arm at point blank range, once, and while it raised two nasty-looking welts that took a couple of days to disappear, the skin was not broken. Model airplane operation - even so-called electric park flyers - is much more dangerous. RC electric speedboat racing is more dangerous by several degrees. With proper safety precautions, this sport is suitable even for young kids. We have a 10-year old and 11 year old in our club, for example. Everone is covered by insurance, including the land and pond owners, just in case.

Finally, about putting on a historical reenactment: Yes, that could be interesting for the performers and the audience, but nothing puckers your butt like the possibility of getting sunk in battle - even if it's only semi-scale toy boats.

So, Colin: Here's a standing invitation to visit our club in California, and try your hand at running a 2-meter long battleship with rotating turrets, loaded for bear. Check our site for an updated 2009 schedule (sometime in the next coupes of weeks): http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com

Best regards,


Rob Wood
Western warship Combat Club
San Jose, California, USA
 

I don't think it would matter what the police thought although if they were to read Umi's earlier description I could make a pretty good guess! Most sailing waters in the UK are owned by local authorities and sailing takes place by permission, not as a right. The vast majority of them have already banned IC powered boats on public nuisance grounds so I don't think they would take kindly to a bunch of people shooting missiles at each other's boats whether they fall within the scope of the firearms act or not. Parents with kids feeding the ducks nearby might not be too keen on the idea either.

Having looked at some of the videos I am a little puzzled as to what the attraction of this particular branch of the hobby is. After all, it's hardly as if it is in any way realistic or historically accurate. Basically you've got 20th century semiscale warships fighting using Napoleonic tactics. It seem to me that underlying all this is just a desire to shoot things, in which case why bother to build the boats when you can just take potshots at squirrels instead?   :}

Speaking personally, I think it's far more interesting when an attempt is made to recreate historical naval occasions as is done by the Portsmouth Model Boat Display team. Lots of bangs, smoke and accurately modelled ships sinking but perfectly safe for the large crowds which thoroughly enjoy the show and don't need eye protection!

Colin

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Colin Bishop

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2008, 09:39:31 PM »

Quote
So, Colin: Here's a standing invitation to visit our club in California, and try your hand at running a 2-meter long battleship with rotating turrets, loaded for bear. Check our site for an updated 2009 schedule (sometime in the next coupes of weeks): http://www.westernwarshipcombat.com

Thanks for taking the trouble to explain Rob, much appreciated. I can understand the attraction to a degree as I was one of the original founders of the UK Naval Wargames Society back in the late '60s http://www.navalwargamessociety.org/about.html We did have a huge amount of fun reenacting major naval engagements using 1:1200 scale models which are a bit smaller than yours. Although I ceased to participate a long time ago it left me with an abiding interest in Naval history and in the technicalities of warship construction, performance and armament. These days my modelling is confined to merchant vessels however.

Many thanks too for your invitation. The only time I visited the Golden State was in September 2001 at the time of the World Trade Centre tragedy. I stood on the dockside at San Diego watching the US Pacific Fleet putting to sea. And they were most certainly loaded for bear! I'd love to go back but there are a few other places on the world must see list first.

As far as puckering your butt is concerned, being run down by an aircraft carrier when you are in a small sailboat reduces the aperture to microscopic size! Believe me, I've been there!

But welcome to the Forum Rob, there's a place for everyone here and I'm sure that many of our members would indeed like to hear more about your activities although I fear the culture on this side of the pond is likely to rule them out for the foreseeable future.

Colin
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BigGun Rob

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2008, 10:49:46 PM »

Hi Colin,

It's my pleasure to participate, wherever ship modelers congregate! I know that we combat guys inhabit a small corner of the RC scale model ship world, which in turn, occupies its own little corner of the model boating world, which in the big picture of RC modeling, represents a small percentage of all modelers. And I also know that most scale ship modelers think we are absolutely batty - especially if we happen to like scale details. But the truth is, we have more in common with scale ship guys than we do with, say, squirrel hunters.  :D

Our models have to be rugged and absolutely dependable, or we stand a very good chance of getting sunk out of the starting gate, or at the very least, fail to support our teams in their hour of trial. So, we spend a great deal of time researching engineering and waterproofing technologies for electronics, sealing wooden hulls and decks, building small and powerful bilge pumps, searching for and finding great deals on economical and powerful electric propulsion motors, and researching scale plans, drawings and photos of our favorite warships. All of this information I offer to all, if anyone needs any tips along those lines. In the same vein, all of you have similar tips, trick, techniques and resources that we would love to learn about, as well.

So whether or not you modelers in the UK can (or wish to) find a way to indulge in the more aggressive aspects of the warship modeling hobby that I represent, please feel free to explore those aspects of it that may be of use to you. Let's explore the ways we can benefit one another!

By the way, I've just returned from a 34 day road tour of the United States, visiting and photographing the following museum ships:

USS Texas
USS Alabama
USS Laffey
USS North Carolina
USS LST 325 (the last operating LST that's still in its original configuration)

Do you think people in this forum would be interested in seeing any of the photos I took?


Best regards,

Rob
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Colin Bishop

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Re: "Model Warship Combat"
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2008, 10:59:26 PM »

Rob, I'm sure I speak for a lot of people on this Forum that we'd really love to see your pictures of the Museum ships. Preserving our maritime heritage is something we aren't too good at over here and many of us on Mayhem think it's a national scandal. In fact we seem to rely on the US to preserve our ships, Queen Mary and Balaclutha for example.

I toured the Iowa when she visited the UK in the 1980's and it was an unforgettable experience to tread the decks of a real battleship.

You will need to reduce your photos to 152k or 800x600 to be able to post them.

Bring 'em on!

Colin
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