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[hedgerowwpete]

I am looking to buy as a new bee a complete set of every thing I need, handset and six channels and servos etc. Now with the modern age of the fleabay and cheap Chinese products does the odd adage of buying a second hand set of top quality stuff is better than buying a brand new but less costly set work or not with both in theory being the same cost on outlay. I have £100 to spend on the hand set and as much other stuff as possible for the aerials etc and for inside the boat another £75 for the controls apart from batteries  but includes speed controllers and receivers etc or will a used set come with worn out parts and a new list of problems

I am at the moment seriously considering the older  lower freq rather than the 2.4g stuff due to my need for a range as long as possible in rough water conditions. the boat aerial does not need to be hidden and can be as long as needed the same with the hand set a separate aerial going to a telescope pole say 6 metres high is OK so we keep line of sight. as models go it is for a practical purpose rather than a cosmetic use.

also I was told in another thread that the lower freq are better received over distance then the 2.4g stuff because it does not work to well over rough water, this to me seems like a great nugget of advice and one i would like to stay with so if i go down the new route how simple is it to buy the  lower freq stuff and crystals, I get the over view that the modern 2.4g stuff is phasing out the old, is that true or just me?

I understand the way crystals can be changed to separate Chanel's and I am just intrested in distance. I would also like to know if there are ways to not so much increase distance as 400-500metres is Maximum but i would like to know how to improve the reception and transmitting. IE with better aerials like extention poles etc and do Modern systems produce a better quality of signal so the older systems are of a poorer quality , yes i understand that transmitting power can not be increased passed its limits but do the hand sets power to those limits or are they underpowered, IE some systems work better at distance where as others do not? we have all seen the cheap and nasty toys that dont work past 20 feet does there lie a similar problems with cheaper handsets fron china

[tony23]

what you sailing at long range in rough water conditions

[hedgerowwpete]

As regards transmitter power - there is a legal limit on power for model use - I dont know of any hobby grade TX that transmits noticeably below this.  Obviously, none transmit above that power.  The toy grade ones (the ones that come in set that costs less than a decent set of batteries) usually run off a PP3 and have a bit of bent wire for an aerial, and have a range beyond arms reach, but not much.  Range, for hobby grade, is more a question of line of sight, the quality of the receiver and siting of the aerial, as a rule of thumb, the higher the better.
2.4GHz signals tend to bounce off water much more readily than lower frequencies, and are very line of sight.  Salt water tends to absorb any signals very readily, thats why transmissions to real submarines happen on very low frequencies, and to receive them the sub has to trail about a mile of wire and be very near the surface.  Model ones work great in fresh water, but lose signal very close to the surface.  At least, the ones that I have seen do.
In most boats running on calm water signal pick up is no problem, the small aerials are easy to hide and still work fully effectively.  On 27 I have "controlled" at yacht at 400 yards.  On 2.4 the furthest I have done is about 200 yards, but that was a 3 foot long warship painted in camo, so any further and just seeing which way it was pointing would have been a problem.
When the aerial vanishes down a trough between waves, signal will be lost.  Just how long it takes for the signal to be re-established and what the controls do in the meantime is a matter of guesswork.  In the linked vid, there appeared to be a long whip aerial, indicating a lower frequency setup.  This is much more likely, in the conditions shown, to get a usable signal for more of the time.

this is the posted reply that i was basing my ideas apon.

the ideal would be new because it has no problems with hopefully but is it though, I am still trying to digest the whole radio set up any way, it starts with three different freq, which i understand, each one is split into smaller  sections for differant people to use at the same time which i understand and the fact that the two lower freqs are old style electronics , i think and that the modern 2.4G can be supplied as normal radio, digital, modular, latching and what ever else, confusess the day lights on me, does anyone know where theres a decent write up on the subject, so i can educate my self.

as for the boat, it is to be used on the sea shore so will have to deal with swell

[Jerry C]

Back when I had my shop some rc airfields required your radio gear to be checked/calibrated by the appropriate people, here in australia its model flight australia, we had a few come back that had issues and all the owners said they werent to worried they would just stick em on ebay.

[Circlip]

Prehaps some sense of scale should be recognised before wanting to set up a base transmitting station capable of contacting Mars.

  Controlling a 3Ft. model at 200 yards, that's more than twice the length of an international football pitch.

  If you're considering "Old" gear, for toy boats, 27mogs or 40mogs FM, only things likely to have deteriorated are Nicads, pot tracks and a sense of reality on the sellers part.

  Regards   Ian.

[hedgerowwpete]

the boat is being built as the cost of foam and fibre glass to me is nill, on the other hand not one single piece of equipment has been purchased to fit inside it, no props, servos, radio equip, nothing, nor has any freq been decided apon untill i am fully aware of the implications for it. I was thinking 2.4G because its the new and modern and all signing and dancing were as  the older more informed people seam to regard  the lower range of 27 megs/mogs/KHz as better for stupid ideas involving sea water.

what would help here is a sticky with the basics of radio recievers on it so a fair decision could be made?

yes i do realise that 500m  out it will be hard to see the boat, but can we just concerntrate on the radio system rather than the visual system.

does anyone freq have better properties over sea water than the others?

how could one keep a better signal going to the boat at distance without breaking the law?
the boat aerial was going to be put on a fibreglass pole 4mm in diam and about a metre long, to short or long?
the handset aerial can be but does not have to be lifted in the air to keep line of sight, i have avalible an old fishing pole made from carbon fibre that is about 8m long that could be used to hold a wire in the air if i wanted to,
 but would the extra cable from the hand set weaken the signal strengh due to the longer singal run?

[Circlip]

OK, oft quoted range for most FM sets was about 1mile Air range and half that ground range. Perhaps you need a quadrocopter with an airbourne TX system? Certainly get over the wave problem, failing that, you need a book on antenae design for different frequencies.

  Regards  Ian

 The South African company selling the Hook dumper don't seem to have a problem with conventional gear.

[john s 2]

As regards 2.4 do you anyone who could lend you a set? There is some contrversy over the use of it, in my opinion a lot is old wives tales.Who do you actually know who really had problems? I dont. Just if worried buy longer aerials and fit above waterline.I fail to see why you need such a range and wonder how in rough weather if youd be able to see and control anyway. Good luck John.

[hedgerowwpete]

you can put a 2.4ghz ant on top of a meter pole just use bootlace coax and an antenna of a home modem/rooter with a bit of gain there are long cables available sold for home modem/rooters and I think some of the spectrum receivers have plug in antenna leads.
my experience 48 years in RC and a A class radio Ham of over 25 years and even longer in radio

Peter

since your the first person that has shown a history of radio knowledge can i ask a few questions from a master of the radio waves. does seawater affect the reception of the signal ?   

does simply sticking the boat  aireal on fibreglass stick make sence
and given that i am starting from scratch and knowing all that you do, is there one freq that you would say , "yes thats the one to use"  I am expecting the hobbie to involve more boats later on so the base transmitter unit will be used for other boats but on fresh water

[triumphjon]

although ive been involved with model boating for around 25 years over the last three ive used my models in salt water only , i normally stand on the shoreline while my model is operating offshore , to date ive not experienced any problems using my planet / twister 2.4 ghz radio sets . even when the model is heeled over and the receiveer is below the surface of the water ! 

[hedgerowwpete]

although ive been involved with model boating for around 25 years over the last three ive used my models in salt water only , i normally stand on the shoreline while my model is operating offshore , to date ive not experienced any problems using my planet / twister 2.4 ghz radio sets . even when the model is heeled over and the receiveer is below the surface of the water ! 

is there any chance i can send a pm as I could do with a mentor on certain matters of sea water

[triumphjon]

not a problem , weather permitting i get to operate my models most days !

[hedgerowwpete]

as an update the sea going bait boat with a slow running petrol engine has just been fitted with a second hand set of futaba or what ever they are called set from fleabay for £35 with three servos and a reciver, we are now awaiting the extra servos and the large collection of boat props ready for the sea trials in the canal

[MikeA]

what frequency have you gone for then ?

[hedgerowwpete]

sorry, its been a very long while since i bothered with this forum i forgot to look at the replys, we are using 2.4g.

the reason for this is mainly because all of my questions/concerns regaurding 27mhz and 35mhz and 40 mhz went, as ever unanswered.

 i went with the latest technoligy because i would belive that all the lower freq are going to be scraped off. this is also why we went for new rather than old tech and a 5 channel system not the three we wanted.

we are using an extended aerial as well for better distence on both ends of the system.

most of the help i am getting is off a car forum and not the boat forum and  as such almost every thing they do is 2.4gh only with not much at all of the lower freqs

[MikeA]

you do realise that the length of the antenna is critical dont you? any longer than what it allready is and its susceptible to interference.

What your under taking is very risky. As in like guys with 30 years experience of building boats wont undetake what your doing risky. Im very interested actually in what your doing. Maybe you can teach me something, have you got any pics of your progress?

[hedgerowwpete]

most boat aerials i have been told are either half or quarters of what can be up to about five foot long, i cant remember the exact length, most are nearer a lot less than that so by adding to the model boat a thin fibreglass rod 4mm in dia and solid make up we have not only the rest of our auto anti capsize device (balloon filled with squirty foam set hard stuffed into fibreglass rod a foot away from boat deck) this then gives me maximun available aerial to collect reception signals from the handset.

the next point is the old line of sight thingy that everyone things is impossible to solve so we thought the higher the person with the hand set the further over the top of the waves you will "see". taken a bit further why stand on step ladders 8 metres tall on a beach, when most of the handsets are available with a socket point that the aerial can be plugged into rather than the telescopic one .

take that even further and one can just set up say an 8 metre long carbon fibre broken fishing pole which will pack down inside its self and then when wanted have its end stuffed into the sand extended just like a telescope aerial on a hand set with a simple wire aerial taped onto the top end running down to the aerial aux socket plug and a ground wire combo,

so what we are doing is not altering the said length of the aerial as that as we all know is a fixed distance etc etc etc blah blab blah, what we are doing is maximixing there extention capabilities on the boat and just repositioning the handset aerial up 10 foot off the floor, OK so its not a long wire rhombus but a simple advantage of what we have available to hand.

as for the whole 2.4gh not working over water, i have seen at my newly found model shop in the blackcountry a  "marine spec 2.4gh handset" designed to be used for boats.

also many many people think this boat is going to go out in 20 foot high waves in a force 2598 storm , its not any higher than a couple of foot surf would be to high for me to launch it and  after the first three breakers  the waves become undulating not breaking

[MikeA]

sounds like some good solutions. 2.4ghz can be used on water, most of us do. it just doesnt penetrate it very well, especially at a distance and worse in sea water. 

how are you going to get around the problems with the engine? what if the boat does capsize and your self righting system works your engine will flooded and then the boat is at the mercy of the sea.

[nemesis]

You may get some trouble using a carbon fibre pole next to your aerial, our yacht lads had to move theirs away from the mast,
       Nemesis

[Circlip]

One way is to put all your ideas into practice and let us know the results? 


    Regards  Ian

[hedgerowwpete]

the anti capsize device is a deep yatch hull desssign with a two kilo bar of lead in it and ontop a fibreglass rod with a foam filled balloon on it so there is no other centre of gravity other than the one i want.

drive wise for the first prototype is a car windscreen motor and batteries. there is only one way it wont come back that is if it floods which i cant see happening so thats easily sorted. as for the use of 2.4gh the only people who seem to have problems with it are all on this forum the car and airaplane people dont and then again neither do futaba either so i am pretty relazed with there research team knowing whats what


as for the petrol motor we are going to work on that over the summer, but for now we want to perfect the droppers and hull shape and steering and the usual details first, then the next hull which we will knock up will get rid of all the snaggs and then we can try the snorkles.

i have not heard of carbon affecting the aerial, i will throw that back to the lads on the car forum to see what they make of it,

[triumphjon]

not sure why you think your going to have problems with the 2.4 ghz radios ? im sailing both electric powered and sail models from a beech / slipway in the sea and within sight of the radio communication tower for the whole of the dockyard ( inc naval ) the swell can be sometime upto around two foot high , to date ive never had any range or loss of signal  issues . my radio sets are a planet t5 2.4 ghz and a planet twister  2.4ghz ! jon

[hedgerowwpete]

for some reason Jon it is the whole of this forums principles that all 2.4gh sets should be burnt in a pile as Satanist and corruption of our children and any one selling or should i say PUSHING 2.4gh kit should be branded in public, etc etc etc.
personal i find mad mikes postings "" it just doesn't penetrate it very well, especially at a distance and worse in sea water. "" as a gentle negative comment but others have been almost ferocious in there attacks  to me

I don't know why because as a newbie i don't know anything, but the two things i have found about this boat forum in the last couple of months is never ever ever, EVER mention anything about IC engines as they are all Satanist devil engines, so is any thing to do with 2.4gh controllers. gawd knows why because every time i open my big trap it has a 40Meg hand unit rammed down it. but no one answers simple questions

I only popped back to let the few Satan users what i was up to as i have found that a car forum, yep thats right a radio control car user forum has much more helpfull and less angry members on it and one is willing to me a mentor to me , which is also some thing else banished from this forum., I will be running on the car forum a load of pictures and where we have mucked up , because every time you post something you get ten ideas to try instead, mostly there proven or done before ideas, but for some reason on the boat forum its  a " your one your own , matey" answers

as an exsample look at this thread, lets start it with a standard newbie question, what do i look for when buying new equipment and what should i generaly be looking for

, is there ONE ANSWER here that says any of the things i have been told on the car forum. Buy a famous name brand , for parts etc, try to ask if it can been seen working, borrow a boat /car take it with you with a set of crystals to test it, , certain models/makes have standard faults, if you do buy one that does not work try these points to see if it was this that has broke, ect etc etc, instead we are now talking about a sea going bait deliver boat that i stopped writing about on the chit chat because of the abusive remarks and knock downs, sad but true i am affraid

its a shame really but i think most newbes would be better off with a mentor either in person or on line , some one willing to learn as well as teach, i know cause i am one on another forum on another subject and it makes a massive difference.

and the thread marked what to look out for when buying second hand equipment to me strikes the mark as a fantastic sticky that most newbies would want to read, but alase not here

[triumphjon]

having been bitten with buying some second hand radio id personally now only buy NEW  as it will also carry a garuntee it works !  i returned to model boating after a long break so some of the electronics have improved vastly . having been at the pondside and watched people walk past with their own models and start operating without carrying out any frequency checks helps swing the desision to buy the newer 2.4 ghz band which eliminates frequency clashes ! as for internal combustion engines i dont think its so much those on this forumn being against their use but due to many local authorities banning the use of ic models on ponds in their areas , due to both noise and a small amout of oil polution . i can see therfore why some people have recomended you check that ic models would be allowed on your chosen strech of water , none of us would want to build a model only to be told sorry mate cant run that here ?  .however with the development in brushless motors and lipo batteries electric models are often quicker than the old ic engine anyhow , and have the advantage of being able to opetate on many more stretches of water !

[MikeA]

Hedgerow pete you have got me horribly mistaken.

Firstly 2.4 ghz. I use 2.4ghz on my boats, its brilliant but it is not good at penetrating through water, on flat water there fine. Bit on the sea with the waves going up and down at 500 metres i was merely concerned that you will be constantly losing and gaining signal as the boat dissapears behind a wave and returning again.

But seeing as your putting the transmitter antenna on a mast then it should be ok.

Secondly the reason why i think the use of an IC engine is bad is because i expect getting though the surf will have your boat awash. So as a preventative measure of your hull flooding is to completely seal the engine compartment. But Ic engine bays need to be open for cooling and air intake. Electic motors do not and can be built into a completely air tight hull.

that vid you showed of the bait boat going out to see is electric and has the ability to run underwater.

I was only trying to warn you of possible problems you will encounter but obviously ive wasted my time and so i will just let you get on with it.