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Author Topic: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.  (Read 17871 times)

Daemon

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Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« on: December 01, 2011, 02:53:39 AM »

Hi guys, i'm currently emailing people at the bmba about starting a UK club for model warship combat, just wanted to do an interest check on here.

Theres info available at wikipedia here :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_warship_combat
 and at the forums here: www,rcnavalcombat.com

So, just an interest check, but let me know if you are interested!

Dave
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brianB6

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2011, 05:30:05 AM »

If you are thinking of using lead shot, just confirm it's o.k. with your local water authority.  <*<
Two of ours here have banned the use of lead in their waters.
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2011, 06:13:59 AM »

Typical shot is standard BBs, or for larger caliber 4.76mm steel ball bearings.

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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2011, 07:25:50 AM »

I think the bigger isssue is whether the air guns on the
model boats will be considered fire arms.

  :((
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john s 2

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2011, 08:34:52 AM »

If your on privetly owned land,with the owners permission then all should be fine. Sadly there is a risk of missaiming causing injury.John.
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Daemon

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2011, 09:43:42 AM »

Umi_Ryuzuki: No, they are not powerfull enough to be classed as air rifle's, they hold a similar muzzle energy as an airsoft weapon, which is (legally defined as) a toy.
John s: As with above, the only real injury risk is to the eyes, and for that reason there is strict construction rules that do not allow gun elevation above the horizon, and for eye protection to be worn by all water-side participants.

The hobby is insured by the North American Model Boat Association in the UK, and the reason for my talks with the British Model Boat Association is for them to be able to afford any club members the same insurance coverage that they currently afford other registered and fee-paying (21GBP a year) members of regular (and registered) model boating clubs.

I am also talking with members and officials of the US clubs about rules systems, and build rules.

Dave.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2011, 12:19:34 PM »

I have watched some of the videos and can't really see the point of it. Having Hood and Bismarck slug it out inches apart like a couple of Nelsonic era ships is not very realistic is it? And those bilge pumps give a sort of Jet Ski effect which I'm sure was never seen at Jutland. Surely a far cheaper and authentic effect would be achieved by just chucking pebbles at a model 50 yards away on the lake... You'd get better splashes too.

Colin
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Circlip

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2011, 12:33:57 PM »

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. While the originator feels he is responsible enough with colleges to shoot the c**p out of each others models fine, but then you get the numpties who see this and go and do their own thing without insurance or supervision. Can't even get fireworks sorted so what price toy boats with guns.

   Regards   Ian.
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2011, 05:38:53 PM »

looks like fun would there be an age limit on this               if club was made and i was allowed to play i would join
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Netleyned

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2011, 05:55:23 PM »

Who is going to police the wearing of eye protection when a little lad
breaks away from Mum to get closer. As they do
Who is going to bear the cost of insurance for the event?

Ned
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2011, 06:00:55 PM »

im guessing insurance would be covered by some sort of annual club insurance
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Patrick Henry

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2011, 06:06:01 PM »

I'm guessing that insurance companies would turn away...rapidly.



Rich
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2011, 07:12:01 PM »

some people i know run around with lite armour thick googles and an airriffle in a field and are insured so im sure insurance for this will be a dodle compared to finding insurance for them
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John W E

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2011, 07:29:07 PM »

hi there all

just been discussing this with my son - he is into Airsoft hobby - and with regard to insurances who is covered by what,,,,

apparently one must be a member of Ukara to purchase any airsoft weapon and also the land used to game on - also has to be registered and have their own insurances for personal injuries.   http://www.ukara.org.uk/index.htm

here is a link for Ukara just to have a read through and find out any information that may be useful - it may be a possibility of using a similar insurance to these to cover the model gaming - hey ho....

aye
john
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Nige52

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 07:45:58 PM »

some people i know run around with lite armour thick googles and an airriffle in a field and are insured so im sure insurance for this will be a dodle compared to finding insurance for them

Air rifles?? Are you sure?
An air rifle has a 12ft/lb limit which is more than enough to kill rabbits, rats, crows, magpies and wood pigeon.....and humans if hit in the right place. Airsoft on the other hand has a 1ft/lb power limit with the 6mm projectile having a weight of no more than 0.2g.....enough for a small bruise should it hit you.

I would bet next weeks Euromillions top prize that the kids running round in that field do NOT have insurance of any kind, not if they ARE using air rifles....and if they are, they're the most stupidest people in your area.

 <*<
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2011, 07:47:38 PM »

1 there adults and 2 it mite be airsoft i dont know that much     about it but theres loads of them that do it and its a club
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Nige52

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2011, 07:50:28 PM »

In that case it'll be Airsoft Skirmishers then, similar in a way to paintballing, but cheaper   ok2
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Arrow5

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2011, 08:06:41 PM »

How about the safer option of paint-ball ship combat instead of BBs ?  Big splat of paint on the enemy vessel`s "magazine area" to determine winner, each ship has different coloured ammunition. No sinking, no jet-ski pumps etc., less danger to  participants and bystanders.  Water pollution would be great though.
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2011, 08:57:47 PM »

but plastic bb pellets are available in most shops to kids over 4 so cant we just use plastic ones
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ben hall

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2011, 09:02:03 PM »

not forgetting to mention the club im a member with lets fire balls of there ships and uses lots more explosions all we have do do is stay 4 m away from public so maby if there where some rule eg you need to be .... faraway from the nerast person to the ship there could be a maximum range on the ships guns and this would be used to calculate the above
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Patrick Henry

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2011, 10:38:21 PM »

This sort of thing can be...no,is dangerous...the late Bernie Wood, Paul Thompson, Ron Perrott and plenty of others were playing about with firing deck guns, operating torpedoes and exploding depth charges over twenty five years ago, and they will all tell you the same...if you don't know what you're doing, you can be seriously hurt. And insurance companies do not like the idea of people getting hurt, seriously or otherwise.

I've seen Bernie Wood's garden left looking like an Iraqui war zone after an experiment with working depth charges went wrong...there's a well known story of Ron Perrott having to explain to his wife that she couldn't have a bath because one of Ron's torpedoes had blown a hole in the bath when something went slightly wrong...the late Nick Burge managed to put a missile through one of his house windows due to a slight error...Bernie and I managed to kill one of my ex-wife's favourite goldfish with a mis-functioning torpedo...need I say more?

Yes, it can be fun to have an operating deck gun on your submarine and go around blowing holes in surface boats, but one slight error can result in an injury to yourself or an onlooker.

We in the AMS used to put on a display with a sub firing operating torpedoes at a surface boat which had a built in explosive charge and was capable of sinking, we've done this on small display pools at shows with spectators standing just a few feet away. We were very lucky that nobody got seriously hurt, and we wouldn't even consider doing it nowadays...H&S would jump on the idea before we even started, insured or not.

I would ask that you investigate the legal implications of having operational weaponry on any model boat, and consult several different insurance companies to see what they say...then have a long chat to a H&S expert for his views.


Rich
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2011, 11:06:13 PM »

Rich is right. Accidents can easily happen. Any use of pyrotechnics must be treated with the utmost care - just ask the Portsmouth Model Boat Display Team. I remember years ago somebody experimenting with 'blowing up' a merchant ship for an Atlantic convoy display. The very small charge that was supposed to just hole the model had a much greater effect than anticipated and those present were lucky to escape without injury. The story was published in Model Boats as a warning not to get involved in this sort of thing on an amateur basis. Explosives of any kind are unpredictable in their effects. You only have one body and it's best to keep it intact! Unfortunately such warnings are not heeded by the 'like a big bang, won't happen to me' brigade. The resulting injuries can be particularly nasty.

Colin
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bat44

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2011, 12:15:01 AM »

as a member of the PMBDT and one of the so called airsoft player's, playing with any type of pyro is dangerous and should not be used unless you have the right  insurance and all the safety measures have being taken care of first, then you have to get permission from who owns the water you are using and thats just the start of it as we have found out over the last 5 years this is geting harder and harder. As to using airsoft guns on the boats this is not the best thing to use as some of these gun do have a high power out put even if you used the cheep guns.sorry but airsoft pellets don't just leave a bruise they can and i have seen this they can knock out teeth, now i am not saying not to do this but you have to be aware of all the dangers that this will bring. if I'm not mistaken was this not tried some years ago but did not work that well, but if you have all this covered then go ahead and have fun     
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Daemon

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2011, 10:12:44 AM »

I am aware of VCRA laws, and they would not stop the production of the weapons systems used on RC Naval Combat boats because VCRA applies only to "Realistic Imitation Firearms", and as the weapons do not look like a real firearm, they are not prohibited.

There is a strct NO PYRO Rule in rc naval combat, aswell, all weapons are simulated using co2/HPA powered "air guns" (simply for lack of a better word) but these have the same muzzle energy as a cheap airsoft weapon, of 1Joule, and are therefore not counted as air rifles/pstols by UK gun laws.

I am aware of UK Gun laws, especially regarding airsoft, as I am a player, myself, and there is nothing in them that would prohibit this kind of sport.

as for those who said its not realistic - its a game, not a simulation. There is no way to have an accurate rc naval warfare simulation without breaking many gun/H&S laws & regulations.

If people are interested in information about the weapons systems, information can be found here: https://rcwarships.org/rcwarships/nwc_new/?category_id=29&menuaction=phpbrain.uikb.view_article&art_id=7

Dave.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Starting RC Naval Combat club in UK.
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2011, 12:33:07 PM »

Rich is right. Accidents can easily happen. Any use of pyrotechnics must be treated with the utmost care - just ask the Portsmouth Model Boat Display Team. I remember years ago somebody experimenting with 'blowing up' a merchant ship for an Atlantic convoy display. The very small charge that was supposed to just hole the model had a much greater effect than anticipated and those present were lucky to escape without injury. The story was published in Model Boats as a warning not to get involved in this sort of thing on an amateur basis. Explosives of any kind are unpredictable in their effects. You only have one body and it's best to keep it intact! Unfortunately such warnings are not heeded by the 'like a big bang, won't happen to me' brigade. The resulting injuries can be particularly nasty.

Colin

The Portsmouth Model Boat Display Team take safety extremely seriously, with a series of rules and regs that the members must follow to use these effects, also the models are checked yearly (MOTs) by our resident experts, we have safety documentation as well as rules, and pyrotechnic range safety checks have been carried out in the past at secure locations (pays to know people in the MOD!), our paperwork is second only in depth to a typical model yacht race, and you know how dangerous they can be.
As far as the article in Model Boats magazine, I have got most articles that have featured the team in the past and can not pin down this incident. I feel that in the 90s the magazine suffered from an undercurrent of 'dissing' the activities of the Display Team and can think of at least two  articles. One at Olympia where an effect was described as leaving an undescribable mess spreading across the bottom of the pond following a series of explosions, I was there and it was my model. This was designed to do what it did and did not leave an undescribable mess spreading across the pond. At the first International Festival of the Sea we had a good write up with the addition that our use of a drydock resulted in HMS Victory getting her bottom wet for the first time in 125 years. No mention of the adjacent dry dock filled up for a diving school having any contributory factors, nect door to that was the Mary Rose and next door to that was HMS Victories dry dock..guilty.
I must say that in recent years the coverage of our displays has been  excellent and has shown no sign of this  apparent bias of previous years.
 I would take issue with the statement 'experimenting'. This is not permitted at a public display, all our experimenting, as stated earlier, goes on behind closed doors.
Pyrotechnic effects are dangerous and any posts I have made in the past on the subject have related to the safety aspects and not the practical side of creating these 'big bangs'.
Daemon seems to be looking into all the proper aspects of this side of the hobby and I wish him well with his pursuit of this in the UK.
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