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Author Topic: HMS Macedonian  (Read 23345 times)

JerryTodd

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Putting More Holes in the Swiss Cheese
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2012, 10:00:05 PM »

Port side wale installed and epoxied


Went into the shop to find something and would up cutting out 8 more gun ports


View from the other side.

JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2013, 01:58:17 AM »

Well, Mark's skiff is finished, save a few minor details.  It's caught a few bushels of crabs already - tasty little critters too.

As for Mac, between trying to move and bailing out the house after a pipe broke and flooded the basement/living room/office, etc - nothing much has been done.

All three of the models were moved to my new home before the flood, and are safe.  My workshop's been moved as well, but awaits being set up.  Mac with a few more gun ports opened up, and some drilled in preparation, now sits on a shelf overseeing the shop's reorganization.

Mean while, a wonder fella from the left coast of our country is going to make masters of the 18 and 9 pounders, and the 32 pounder Carronades that I will mold and cast Mac's battery from.  I attached a screen capture from Solid Works of the Blomefield pattern 18 pounder and Carronade.

JerryTodd

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Macedonian guns
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2013, 12:38:37 AM »

The masters for Macedonians guns (5 of each) are made, or rather, printed, and from the photos look really good.  I should have them in a few days.

The 18 pounder is about 9mm long, BTW.

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2013, 02:15:44 AM »

9mm, you sure you got your conversion right?
that' just short of 3/8th inches. A very small amount, and judging by the snap-lock bags, maybe that should read 90mm?
around 3.5 inches?
cheers
vnkiwi %)
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JerryTodd

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The American Metric System is broken
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2013, 06:07:13 AM »

You're right, it should have been 90mm, about 3.5 inches.

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2013, 06:20:31 AM »

cool,
very nicely done, the drawing and printing
cheers
vnkiwi
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dlancast

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2013, 08:30:43 PM »

Nice work Jerry.  Were cannons cast?  Love the skiff... who's design is that?
Dennis
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Guns and skiffs
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2013, 11:13:33 PM »

I'll be using them as masters to cast the 28 long guns and 22 carronades I'll need for Macedonian, as well as 4 long guns for Pride of Baltimore's 1:20 scale 6 pounders.  Those will be cast in resin.

The cannons were 3D printed by a company in California.  Tim Bowman did the CAD drawings and offered to have them done because I shared my plans for Mac with him.  He intends to built a Lively class frigate,  Spartan, in 1:24 scale, after he get's his 1:24 scale Cruiser class brig Scorpion completed.  His Scorpion build log is on RCGroups here.

The skiff is my friend Mark's own design.  He's an avid crabber and built it to replace his smaller crabbing boat he also designed and built in the same manner.

JerryTodd

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Sail controls
« Reply #33 on: July 04, 2014, 05:43:23 AM »

Macedonian will be rigged, in RC terms, just like my Constellation.  Both are three masted, square rigged ships, with a driver and a number of heads'ls.  How they are controlled therefore, is essentially the same.

The braces of a square rigger normally attach to the yards near their ends, but this is problematic on an RC model.  The yard is normally wider than the hull's interior where the controls are housed.  This means the arms on a servo can't be as wide as the yard, even when turned fore-n-aft, as the required travel isn't available.  Modelers typically fudge this issue buy attaching the braces at a point out on the yard equal to the width of the arm on the controlling servo.

As the braces turn the yards the tips of the yard describe a circle, but the brace does not, it is a line from the block it makes it's last turn from to the attachment point on the yard and that line changes in angle and length - a cord.  In the above situation, the braces, when seen in plan form a parallelogram and everything moves equally.

If you wish to attach the braces in a prototypical manner, you would probably resort to a winch instead of a servo arm, and because of the geometry of the brace relative to the movement of the yard end - everything is not equal.  Basically, as one brace hauls the yard on one side, the brace the winch is paying out is slack.  On a model, this can cause problems, not the least of which is the line falling off the winch drum and tangling.

The normal way to deal with this is a set-up to absorb the slack and maintain some tension in the braces.  This is typically done with weights in various ways, and I myself planned to route the braces to a block on a spring and then through the deck.

Always looking for simple, efficient ways that are inexpensive and don't require machining I can't get or do, a discussion some years back suggested the winch servo be made to slide for-n-aft as it hauled the braces, maintaining the tension.  Dan put together a test rig and found it to be feasible, and went on to install it in his brig Syren.

Dan's videos of testing the winch arrangement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN5TjNoWJ9g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MymnstZpz_I

So, this is the system for bracing the yards that will go into Constellation and Macedonian, and any other square-rigger I may build.

Both sliding winches are mounted on 5mm brass rod held by end brackets made from aluminum angle.  Each bracket measure about 5cm wide, 38mm tall, has at least a 12mm foot.  The rods are just slight further apart than the wide of the servo body.  They are about 35mm up from the bottom.  When the servo is mounted on it's blocks that slide on the rods, it's bottom will be about 4mm up from the mounting surface.

As before, one winch will handle the braces of the main and mizzen masts.  Only the cross jack, main, and main tops'l yard will be directly controlled.  The other winch will handle the braces of the foremast; namely the fore yard and foretops'l yard.  Both winches are mounted on a new servo tray that will include the servo for the head'sl semaphore arm sheeting system.  I decided to arrange the winches side-by-side, instead of in tandem, as I had them before.  This makes the new tray wider, but shorter than Constellation's original set up which will make accessing the system through the main hatch much easier.

The two trays have been assembled, mostly.  I'm still waiting for the Delrin plastic to make the sliding blocks from; I still need to make the fairleads that will ensure the braces stay on track as they pay onto and off the winch drum; and I have to seal and paint the wooden tray everything is mounted on.

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Sail controls
« Reply #34 on: July 25, 2014, 03:09:06 AM »

Servo trays were made for both Macedonian and Constellation.  A length of 2 inch by 2 inch aluminum angle was used to make the end brackets and the fairlead plates.  The end brackets have holes for 2 3/16" brass rods for the winch servos to slide on.  The rods are drilled with 1/16" holes at their ends for cotter pins to retain them between the end brackets.

1/4" by 1/2" by 2" Delrin plastic blocks are the "pillow blocks" or slides for the servos.  They're drilled for the brass rods, and the winch servos have one mounted at each end.  The fairlead plate will guide the brace lines on and off the winch drums and they are mounted on one of the slide blocks.

If a servo needs to be removed, or replaced, unplug the servo from the Rx, remove the winch drum, loosen the four mounting screws (which were the ones that came with the servo, though the rubber pads and brass ferrules were not used), and out it comes.  The servo is not altered in anyway, so there's no warranty issues created by this setup.

The last image is of Constellation's servo tray with the wiring harness installed.

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HMS Macedonian as of the end of May 2015
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2015, 07:06:30 AM »

Macedonian is still on the shelf while I work on Constellation.  Some work on Constellation is pertinent to Macedonian as both models will use virtually identical control systems.

For instance, On Constellation's winches I added drums to handle the tacks for the main and fore coarses.  This obviously made them taller and the braces and tack will all put pressure on the stack in one direction, torquing the attachment between the drum and the winch servo.  To counter that I installed Delrin plastic bearing blocks on the fairlead plates that the drum can, well, bear against.  The lever moment caused by this will change the pressure from sheering to lifting where the drum attaches to the servo.

Rereading all that don't be concerned if you don't get it - just look at the pictures, they explain it better than I can.

dlancast

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2015, 07:21:36 AM »

Amazing work Jerry.  My mind turns to mush with all that technology!
Dennis
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Oh cut it out!
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2015, 10:40:09 PM »

I've been so focused on Constellation of late, but when I finally got free to work in the shop, I chose to finish cutting out the rest of Macedonian's main deck gunports and stern windows.

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Getting the model to the water
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2016, 10:08:57 PM »

I was supposed to take the three models to an event this weekend past (Oct 1st) but couldn't get Constellation or Pride sailable in time along with some other problems...

The last times I've taken Constellation to these events they have a pool for the models to sail in, which are always too shallow and Constellation just end up sitting there like a centerpiece.  This time I intended to sail her in the open water of the Miles River where this event was to be held.  Besides issues with batteries and a small-craft event going on in the river at the same time, I had no safe way to get the very heavy model to, into, out-of, and back from the river.  I needed to build a launch-cart or some sort.

I doodled a few design ideas, including some involving a hand-truck I have that works upright, and converts into a cart.  This was just too much.  I would wind up being bulky, difficult to transport itself, and awkward to use from what I've heard from those that use such arrangements.  I meandered toward the idea of what's basically a boat trailer and sketched a few overdone concepts until I settled on what I think is the simplest design as show in the attached images.

I based the cart on the materials I have, principally an old bed-frame made of steel angle-iron.  Two of these pieces about 1.27 meters long would form a channel to hold the 42 pound ballast tube that's bolted to the bottom of the model.  One piece about 355cm, would be mounted at right angles to the channel pieces, just forward of center, and support the axle rod.  This bed frame proved to be very hard to cut, completely wearing out the two used blades I had, along with a brand new one I got to finish the job.  The pieces are bolted together (I don't have access to welding equipment or the cash to get it done).  And some placed I intended to use short lengths of the angle-iron, I'll be using wood instead.  The diagonal braces from the axle to the channel will be some flat iron of a softer steel than shown in the drawing.

Part of the problem I've seen other people report with their launch carts was they're tendency to float, especially with inflated wheels - that will not be an issue with this one.

Interestingly, while looking through images on my computer on another subject, I noted in some pictures of Brian Clark's Killingworth that he used generally the same concept for his cart.  So there's precedent for the route I've taken.  :)  Mine is a bit simpler.  I also meant ti to be weight toward the back than the front.  My thinking here is when I put it in the water to recover the model, the back end isn't sticking up waiting to spear the model, but is sitting more like a ramp for the model to glide onto.  We'll see how that works out soon, I hope.  My channel at the bottom also prevents the model from turning or yawing on the trailer.

Anyway, I post this in Macedonian's thread because she very similar in function to Constellation and will likely be using this same cart when it's her turn to go in the drink.

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2016, 10:32:09 PM »

Excellent work all round! I just found your topic and loved the cannon prints and the launching trolley  :-))

I remember my Dad cutting bed frames up for the metal. Some were tensile steel while others were softer steel, and yes, the former ate hacksaw blades and drill bits as well!
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #40 on: October 12, 2016, 10:29:34 PM »

A few minor design changes...
I tried wood blocks as a socket for the handle, but they were in the way and then I though of using a flag-pole bracket for a 1 inch pole, so I shaved my handle down to fit and stuck some turks-heads on it to reinforce it against splitting.  I never realized how long it's been since I tied a turks-head, and it took me a while to remember how. :)  Another nice aspect of this cart is how small it gets.  Take off the handle and wheels and it's less than 6 inches tall and can be hung on a peg.  The side supports will stick up, unless I make them fold in when not used.

So, I still have to nail down the side supports, the ones in these pictures are temporary and c-clamped on, but the thing seems to work.  Once I get the supports figured out and installed I'll paint the living day-lights out of it.  I'm leaning towards light-blue.  Then it'll be time for the big test in the water.

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #41 on: October 13, 2016, 12:01:48 AM »

Jerry, you are amazing.  Hooza.... good job! :-))   Dennis
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Launch cart
« Reply #42 on: October 28, 2016, 05:51:11 PM »

Took Constellation to the creek for a sail and try out the new launch cart.

She tended to want to slide back, so I'm going to take advantage of the lip behind the end caps on the ballast tube.  I'll put a wedge of oak in the channel behind where the edge of the cap will be.  The model will basically snap in place as she slides onto the cart.

There's some video captures below of launching and retrieving and a video of the day's sail on Youtube; launching and retrieving are are included at the beginning and end of the video.

https://youtu.be/80b2au24rFQ

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #43 on: October 28, 2016, 11:25:57 PM »

Hello Jerry,

You have done it again !!!!.
Looks fantastic on the water and off.
All that Sail area and no drop keel !.
When she is fully rigged, you MUST post a video.

John.  :-)) :-)) :-))
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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2016, 03:10:04 AM »

Jerry... wonderful!  Tks for sharing.  I have a question.  With model sailboats, there is generally a drop keel extend to maintain stability.  I guess that has to do with the physics of hydrodynamics?  Since it is obvious that you are using strictly internal ballast as they did in the days of old, how much "more" ballast did you have to add to keep her on her feet?  She seems a bit low in the stern on trim, is there a reason for that?  Or is that because you have secretly installed a 357 V-8 in the stern {-) .....


Best regards,


Dennis
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JerryTodd

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #45 on: October 29, 2016, 06:29:48 AM »

Constellation, and this all applies to Macedonian as well, do have external ballast in the form of a PVC pipe filled with lead bird-shot that weights 42 pounds.  It's the gray tube under the keel.  It's held to the model with two 5/16" threaded rods.  Out of the water, I can easily separate ballast from ship, reducing the weight I have to handle by 42 pounds, plus another 15 pound in the hull that removable. 

By "drop keel" I'm supposing you mean a removable fin with a bulb at the bottom.  I've seen models this size use such things, Stad Amsterdam is one I can think of off-hand.  While that provides for a greater righting arm, it just wouldn't be practical for me.  To launch and recover I'd have to go further out into water deep enough for the fin.  A fin would require less external ballast but then the model would still need the same weight to get her to her waterline, so I'd need more internal ballast.

If you look at my Pride of Baltimore thread in this forum, you'll see she will have a fin with a bulb of about 20 pounds.  Being a Baltimore schooner, with a lot of drag to her keel, and supposed to be fast and maneuverable - a torpedo like ballast tube, I think, would be detrimental to her handling.  So a fin makes sense for that model, and even she will still require some internal ballast to get he onto her lines and trim her.

I don't know how large a model has to get before the ballast can honestly be all internal and to scale (ie, no exaggerated depth), but here's a model that obviously is not that size;
https://youtu.be/UHScOZABh4o

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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2016, 02:40:46 PM »

I take it the larger the model - the less of a drop keel you need as the displacement needed shifts internally the larger the vessel gets, I'm screwed with victory then, lol
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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #47 on: October 29, 2016, 09:16:17 PM »

Hello,

The drop keel has nothing to do with the size of the model.
Imagine a See-saw, turn it, so it is vertical, the top side of it is the wind, the lower side of it is the drop keel.
The Pivot point is the Hull, the wind is opposed by the weight on the drop keel.
As the keel is made longer, it will take more wind to move it !!.
Jerry has given a video link which shows what happens when the Wind wins !!.

https://youtu.be/UHScOZABh4o

From the boats waterline to the bottom of the boat, is not enough leverage - - back to the See-Saw !.
My schooner,Bluenose is SEVEN FEET LONG is has a long drop keel with 45lbs of Lead on the end, which gives the correct waterline and matches the huge sails.

John.
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Re: HMS Macedonian
« Reply #48 on: October 29, 2016, 09:30:06 PM »

Jerry,

My apologies for jumping into your thread !!.

John.  :-))
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Did you see what I saw?
« Reply #49 on: October 29, 2016, 11:40:03 PM »

No worries Jay,

My royals and t'gallants will be easily removable, and the courses can be bunted up; lowering that end of the see-saw.  If the wind's too strong for that, then I ain't sailin'.  Anything over 15 mph is pushing toward a scale hurricane, and not being the Bounty, she's not sailing in such weather.

I'm sure there's math to figure all this out, righting-moment, hydrostatics, etc; but math is not my strong suit.  Show me the formulas and I'll plug in the numbers and share the answer with anyone that's interested.  ;)
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