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[BournemouthBoater]

Hi,

I'm busy looking around for my next build, and I'm interested in doing something like a Flak lighter, barge or even one of the bigger Flak boats. These often mounted 'land-based' flak cannons, like the 8.8cm, 3.7cm and 2.0cm quads. If I did build one of these, I'd like to make it look like it's in action, with gun crews, etc. The question I have is how did they handle the used shell casings? I have seen a shell catching net basket attached to 3.7cm cannons, but in various descriptions it is said to be 'optional'. So were empty casings just left to roll around on deck and into the water? The 8.8 casings would be considerably larger of course and surely would cause a problem if these cluttered up the limited space around the mountings. Was is standard practice to collect the casings and pack them away for recycling - or were they just tossed overboard as and when they got in the way?

I would suspect that the practice would be similar in most navies of the time, although the scarcity of resources in Germany may have made them more careful to retrieve the used casings.

Any and all input would be appreciated.

Thanks
Gloves

[tassie48]

Gloves Hi I am building a 1/32 PA-2 ex French Flower class corvette captured by the Germans and finished off and used by the Germans all four of these vessels were used by them going on the data that i have from the net and ex crew members they used a number of ways to rid of the shell casings after use,the  fwd 4 inch gun used the chuck over the side after the conflict some were kept for reloading?
The fwd deck 20 mm two X single weapons had a scupper hole cut out that the shells were just pushed with a broom over the side.
Bridge Vierflak quad 20 mm had two chutes that the shells were pushed into and slid over the side of the vessel.
Same with the aft Quad 20 mm and  the twin and single 3.7cm cannons as well.
In the early conflicts these were discarded away and I am told a lot were send back for reloading due to the limited life of these vessel much data is very hard to find.
My model will have a lot of spend casings littering the deck lots of brass etch ,gun kits and crew for this scale,did build a 1/72 model as well  not the best of sea keeping vessels with a lot of top weight their is footage on you tube of them at action/work.
Flak boats were from barges to trawlers up to corvettes and larger warships just like to build something different all the best tassie48.

[BournemouthBoater]

Hi Tassie,

Thanks for your reply, it has been very useful indeed. To sum it up, it appears while in action they would get rid of the casings as quickly as possible, but maybe after action they'd collect any remaining casings for recycling.

Here are some links I found with somewhat limited info, but they did provide some clues, although more applicable to land based operations.
http://auth.history.com/topic/11789
http://theminiaturespage.com/boards/msg.mv?id=161179
http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=33016

Briefly, it has been suggested that support troops would 'clean up' artillery sites, presumably after the artillery has advanced, and return empty casings together with broken equipment, etc to the rear for processing. Also, the Germans switched to steel shell cases early in the war for most uses, so they may not have been too hung up on recycling the used shells as steel was one thing they did not have a shortage of.

Thanks
Gloves

[RaaArtyGunner]

As mentioned the point to consider is the ejection method of the weapon and the weapon in question

For example the "ubiquitous Bofor"(40mm) had a curved chute from the breech which ended in front of the gun.
Upon firing the ejected spent cases would 'stack' well in front of the gun, enabling a clear traverse of the weapon.
Therefore on say PT type boats these cases would invariably end up over the side as the gun was traversed (rotated) during action.

Heavier automatic guns, ie 88mm weapons ejected to the rear of the breech. Hence why no one is at the rear of the breech, they also would go over the side when mounted on "narrow craft' when not firing in an elevated anti aircraft mode.

Non auto guns ie field, anti tank and the like also employed on PT type boats were ejected manually and would fall clear of the breech and have to be cleared.

Either way would be correct, that is some cases on deck or none at all.

[farrow]

It may be of interest to know that in the late 1990's the RN reverted to dumping spent brass shell casings over the side, because they had started to retain used cases for recycling, but there was an incident where unburnt propellant in a used shell exploded when it was being melted down.

[farrow]

Just remembered a tale of my father when he was on the Woodcock, after the recapture of Hong Kong, they used the empty shell cases to pay a local Chinese gang who lived on a Junk to paint the Woodcocks sides, the head person was a woman. He told me one of her daughters who worked in the gang was pregnant she was allowed of duties to give birth but was back at work soon after giving birth, no NHSA there then.

[gregk9]

While doing BOST on Birmingham in early 80s I was keenly watching the Mk 8   455 ejecting cases forward of the gun. Some stayed on deck but a few went over the wall. I asked the POGI  how many went over the side and he said "most of them sir, until everyone's got an ashtray then about 10%." When I turned in that evening I found an ashtray under my pillow. I'm looking at it now, all shiny on my hearth, even though I don't smoke anymore. I believe she's gone to Gillette now. These modern ones don't seem to last as long as the oldies.

[pugwash]

Dodes The female gang in Hong Kong who used to paint the ships sides from their Sampans were run by a lady called (by the Navy) Side party Jenny
and her crew did all the ships who came into the Harbour there. She did it so long she was eventually presented with the B.E.M. for services to the Royal
Navy -  her crew could paint a ships side quicker and better than the painters in Pompey Dockyard ( no doubt far cheaper) They lived on a Junk and used
the Sampans as their work and transport boats.

Geoff

PS if you follow the link it is one of many about her life - she worked until the colony was returned to the Chinese in 1997 and died in 2009 about 92 yrs old
She was a right character but as straight as a die.

http://www.military-quotes.com/forum/jenny-jennys-side-party-died-t73519.html

[Netleyned]

Jennys Side Party painted the Eagle in three days
Using paint cats with bamboo staging that would
Have had the elves an tasty pooing their pants
They were treated to some smelly soap and foofoo
By the lads and obviously a good wad from HMG

Ned

[farrow]

Thanks for the name guys, my father was greatly intrigued by their work et-tics.