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Author Topic: Costa Concordia  (Read 95730 times)

carlmt

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #75 on: January 16, 2012, 03:59:04 PM »

Agree with Pugwash here - most travellers on ships, especially cruise ships, really cannot comprehend the dangers..

When Flo and I travel to Europe, we 99% of the time travel Dover Dunkerque on one of the three 'D' class vessels.  Since the beginning, I have always thought through a possible escape plan from wherever in the ship we are sitting - which is mostly one of 3 places : the front cafetieria, the first class lounge or the bar area.  I would hope I would never have to act upon it.....

The announcements made on the ferries about gathering at muster stations and being directed to a lifeboat is very confidence inspiring...........to those who have little comprehension!!!! In reality, if a cross channel ferry starts to sink, it will either go down quick or turn turtle just as quickly - a known problem that cannot be resolved within a commercially viable budget or operation.  I know where I will go in a sinking or capsizing emergency......and it isnt to the muster stations inside if I am within 3 meters of an outside door!!!!!
Carl

davidsg1a

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #76 on: January 16, 2012, 04:07:33 PM »

Just to bring up a point that justboatonic brought up about the Captain been head of security, all ships now a-days have a designated security officer on board normaly the first mate (chief Mate), so from his experiance as ships security officer got a shore job for a while, to be the first officer onboard these ships he would of been a qualified Master.

Suppose my point is that he didnt just become a security man to master.

David
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2012, 05:29:40 PM »


 What happen if the Captain is right and as he says the charts said 'clear navigable waters' .... and the charts prove to be inaccurate?

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dodgy geezer

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2012, 05:48:05 PM »


 What happen if the Captain is right and as he says the charts said 'clear navigable waters' .... and the charts prove to be inaccurate?




Um. The boat is worth around 370m. But that's dwarfed by the 20% hit Carnival Cruise Lines have taken to their share price - that's about 1bn.

If you had been in charge when a lot of powerful men lost 1bn and you tried to argue that it wasn't your fault, what do you think would happen to you?
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john s 2

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2012, 06:25:07 PM »

If he was a British yobbo being dealt with by the Police then he could expect a severe talking too. Which would possibly cause him to injure himself laughing. Once the facts are established hopefully he will receive just punishment.Who remembers the Marchoness sinking? As usual in Britain no real or just punishment.Sadly the death toll continues to rize. From news reports it could have been higher. At least all the highly trained Crew were able to get off first. Thats what training does for you.John.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #80 on: January 16, 2012, 07:19:47 PM »

Quote
At least all the highly trained Crew were able to get off first. Thats what training does for you.

Um... so how did the passengers get off then? All 99% of them.
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john s 2

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #81 on: January 16, 2012, 07:32:28 PM »

From what ive read after most of the crew. Although some had to swim as no life boats left. Yes thankfully most got off but could the death toll have been less if the crew had done there job? I suppose telling the passengers alls well left the captain a clear path off. John.
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BarryM

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #82 on: January 16, 2012, 08:18:42 PM »

At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck. Very little that has been heard or seen is confirmed as fact and the official inquiry has hardly started. Thus, before making allegations about anybody, be they crew or passengers, lets hold back until the truth is established.

Barry M
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dave301bounty

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #83 on: January 16, 2012, 08:24:21 PM »

have had a lot of boat drills on various ships ,one was needed , but let me tell you ,no planned emergency goes right ,those poor souls must have thought it there last .no one can make a comment as it is all very different ,we all react in a very different way but one thing is for sure there is a heck of a lot of questions to be asked and some one is gonna take the blame  ?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #84 on: January 16, 2012, 08:39:28 PM »

Quote
At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck. Very little that has been heard or seen is confirmed as fact and the official inquiry has hardly started. Thus, before making allegations about anybody, be they crew or passengers, lets hold back until the truth is established.

I quite agree. Much of the 'information' being published in the general media is utter rubbish and you have to read between the lines to a large extent at the moment. But I think that to get 99% of the passengers off safely in a situation like that is a pretty impressive achievement and that those responsible deserve recognition for it. Those passengers didn't save themselves, and many would have been relatively infirm and with limited mobility taking into account the average age range of cruise passengers, most of whom are of pensionable age.

Colin
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john s 2

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2012, 08:51:03 PM »

The captain made a good job of saving himself which is why he is under arrest for deserting his ship. Yes i do realize that its easy to let conjector and rumour take over. Hopefully lessons can be learnt from this sad event.Being that so many of this big boats have been built i wonder how safety can be improved . Time will tell. John.
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CF-FZG

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2012, 09:54:11 PM »

At the moment we have speculation, conjecture, theorising and allegations. Al lot of it by self-appointed 'experts' who could not tell a mast truck from a dumper truck.

And that's just on here :D
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davidsg1a

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2012, 10:13:08 PM »

dave301bounty no planned emergancy goes right, Im the I done lots of drills on different ships aswell, I worked for the RFA for 4 years and the training we did wasnt an hour a week it was all day every day for weeks, I was on a RFA ship that had a fire in the middle of the night, most of what you learn in drills go out the window, people act differently in a real emergancy, I think the crew did well with amount of pax they had and so little loss of life, if the crew where as use less as the news says the where there would of been alot more dead.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2012, 11:05:13 PM »


More from the BBC.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16586647

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16581518

Even if it is Human (captains error) wouldn't the other officers, in particular the navigation office also have to agree to the course change?


... I know this one of Colin's 'pet peeves', the very "top heavy" nature of the modern day passenger liner.



 Martin   (landlubber!)
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BarryM

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #89 on: January 17, 2012, 08:50:17 AM »

It would be a remarkably brave Mate who told the Old man that he was wrong!

Modern cruise liners may look top-heavy but they are (when intact) very stable. They have to be if the Owner is not to get a lot of complaints from the paying guests.

Barry M
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #90 on: January 17, 2012, 10:55:12 AM »

Quote
I know this one of Colin's 'pet peeves', the very "top heavy" nature of the modern day passenger liner.

It's their appearance which I don't like Martin. I have no reason to suppose that they are not inherently stable as most of the weight is down in the bottom of the hull. However they depend on dodging bad weather to preserve passenger comfort and on the occasions when they are caught out the motion can be quite uncomfortable compared with a deeper draught ship although that doesn't make them dangerous as such.

The high topsides do create a lot of windage which, combined with the shallow draught, can make them hard to handle though. Hence all those rows of thrusters.

Colin
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #91 on: January 17, 2012, 02:45:37 PM »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16597277

The coward of a Captain abandoned ship into a lifeboat long before the passengers were off and had to be ordered several times by the coastguard to get back onboard the ship , just heard on BBC News24 that the court in Italy has refused him bail , looks like he will be locked up for a long long time which is just what he deserves
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #93 on: January 17, 2012, 03:49:36 PM »

What a truly awful and loaded piece of reporting on the part of the Daily Mail!

But what else do you expect from that 'publication'?

The facts seem to be bad enough already but to embroider them with all that dripping venom.... I suppose we'll have all the 'Italian navy always running away during the war' next!

Colin
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DavieTait

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2012, 04:13:08 PM »

Aye its a very poor but not unexpected drivel from the Daily Wail right enough , listening to the taped Coastguard VHF between the incident commander ashore and the "captain" he was in a lifeboat for about an hour before being forced to go back onboard which by some of the tape maybe looks like he didn't do even though he was ordered several times to get back onto the ship to co-ordinate the rescue of the passengers.

From other news reports from crew they took the decision to muster the passengers 20 to 30 minutes before the Captain ordered a muster , without the crews actions the loss of life here would be in the hundreds if not over a thousand , they were saying that it takes a minimum of an hour to an hour and a quarter to muster all passengers to the boats , this is just far too long especially if a serious collision leading to rapid flooding occurs. Surely the only way forward is to allow a maximum muster time of 30 minutes and either have to double the crew to make sure a ship of this size manages or cut the passengers allowed onboard in half to at least make escape a realistic proposition in a rapidly evolving emergency ( such as collision with another large ship at sea well offshore , shouldn't happen but it is still possible )
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2012, 04:43:37 PM »

Either of those options would make most of the world's cruise ships economically unviable at a stroke! At the moment there is roughly one member of crew for every two passengers.

Surely the critical factor is the rate at which you can get people off the ship and into the boats or liferafts and the size of the ship would not necessarily be relevant. The more people you've getting off simultaneously the quicker the evacuation will go. The important thing is to avoid pinch points which slow everything up.

On our Thomson cruises we were assigned a specific lifeboat to muster below while on the QM2 there were several large spaces designated as muster stations inside the superstructure on the boat deck. I assume that in the case of abandoning the passengers would have been directed out to the boat deck and led to the boats/rafts - hopefully in an orderly manner. However, if you happened to be at the back I'd imagine you might be just a little bit anxious!

Colin
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deadwood

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2012, 05:09:14 PM »

Surely the only way forward is to allow a maximum muster time of 30 minutes and either have to double the crew to make sure a ship of this size manages or cut the passengers allowed onboard in half to at least make escape a realistic proposition in a rapidly evolving emergency ( such as collision with another large ship at sea well offshore , shouldn't happen but it is still possible )

And this period (i.e. <= 30 min.) is exactly what the IMO Guidelines for Evacuation Analysis for Pax. Vessels demand.

Maybe the COSTA CONCORDIA came into service just a wee bit too early for the affected SOLAS regulations' amendments to become effective, as IMO state on their website: The Committee agreed that the new amendments and guidelines should be enforced by 2012?

As it seems the race for ever larger cruise ships driven by the "economy of scale" maybe has hit some acceptable, and feasible limit (especially as evacuation and SAR operations for that many souls are concerned), and the shipping/cruises and shipbuilding industries should reconsider their plans?

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Bryan Young

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #97 on: January 17, 2012, 05:11:02 PM »

Davie....I'm sure you mean well, but gathering/collecting both non-seafaring passengers and non-seafaring crew members together when they number in their thousands is by any standards a long process. Has to be. "Drills" always assume that all LSA (Life Saving Apparatus) is available on both sides of the ship. When a large vessel heels over and only 50% of the LSA is available then what do you do with the 50% of the disenfrachised lot? No matter how well educated, physically fit and so on your'e going to have to expect a degree of uncontrolled panic. These people were just going on a holiday, not a survival course.
All this comes to mind when I recall the "drill" we did on "Sir Bedivere" within the confines of Portland Harbour. 90 "civilian" volunteer passengers and a well trained crew to look after them. When we heeled the ship to 15* the eruption of panic amongst the "passengers" was really quite frightening...even though there was no danger whatsoever. Dealing with 3,000 passengers with only a minimally trained crew would be an impossibility.
My rather stupid and impractical answers to your statement would include having personal chaperones for each passenger, each passenger having to take a "survival at sea" course before being allowed to board and no individual who was considered to be "infirm", "overweight" or otherwise physically hampered would be allowed passage. Stupid idea...but have you got any better ones? I imagine not. And don't keep quoting the Daily Mail...they are only reporting waht all the other papers are saying. BY.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #98 on: January 17, 2012, 05:15:47 PM »

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pugwash

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #99 on: January 17, 2012, 05:29:59 PM »

Has anyone ever succeeded in salvaging a ship this size with the amount of hull damage she undoubtably has??  I think it is more than likely it will be chopped up and
carted away over a period of months.  If the hull can be patched it could be possible to right it and pump out but it seems a tall order.  Just have to wait for the report
from the divers as to the next course of action

Geoff
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