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Author Topic: Costa Concordia  (Read 96469 times)

roycv

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #125 on: January 19, 2012, 09:00:45 am »

Hi, I listened to a translation of the Coastguard talking to the captain.  The Coastgard said as you have abandoned ship I am in charge!  He ordered the captain back on board to account for the passengers and he refused.
There are quite a few comments from the officers as well, implying that he drove her like a Ferrari.

I hope you won't take this in the wrong way, but I saw a headline comparing Costa Concordia to RBS, both have a severe liquidity problem!
regards Roy
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CJ1

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #126 on: January 19, 2012, 09:34:25 am »

Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.

Colin

I disagree completely. As Captain, he is wholly responsible for his ship, crew and passengers and therefore totally to blame.

Chris
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #127 on: January 19, 2012, 09:58:28 am »

Quote
I disagree completely. As Captain, he is wholly responsible for his ship, crew and passengers and therefore totally to blame.

True, but that doesn't mean that others are are not also at fault. After the Herald of Free Enterprise capsized the company were also held to blame for their operational practices. If it comes out that Costa turned a blind eye to these island 'fly bys' then they must also accept some responsibility.

Colin
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #128 on: January 19, 2012, 10:24:54 am »

True, but that doesn't mean that others are are not also at fault. After the Herald of Free Enterprise capsized the company were also held to blame for their operational practices. If it comes out that Costa turned a blind eye to these island 'fly bys' then they must also accept some responsibility.Colin

Exactly

  O0 O0 O0 :-)) :-)) :-))
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Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #129 on: January 19, 2012, 11:01:24 am »

Interesting drawing from the corriere de la serra



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malcolmfrary

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #130 on: January 19, 2012, 11:41:41 am »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16607837

Claims that the ship had done similar sail-byes before, but the earlier one shown was a few yards further from shore.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16563562

Shows the approved route, and the one actually taken.  Quite a difference,

Thats one heck of a big hole - the water must have been scooped in enormously quickly.  If there was an attempt to keep it upright by using the stabilisers, it is quite possible that it was overdone and the unwanted water ran to the "wrong" side.  If the hole was still below water, the water would still enter, but the extra weight would transfer to the starboard side.  Of course, the stabilisers only work when the ship is moving, so as it slowed down, the more likely it would be that the hole would be further submerged, more water would enter, and the ship would settle starboard side down.
Fortunate for many that they managed to find something to ground on, Med islands are not noted for wide shelving beaches, more for big cliffs and a huge drop into deep water.
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dave301bounty

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #131 on: January 19, 2012, 03:47:32 pm »

I  Say ,what,s a pedalo .  and was that the ships purser geting winched out two days ago ,he had a broken leg ,wonder how he got it .? on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #132 on: January 19, 2012, 04:41:58 pm »

Quote
on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?

Just a bit more than that I think....

Not surprised he had a broken leg, moving about a ship lying on its side is not exactly safe.

Colin
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malcolmfrary

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #133 on: January 19, 2012, 05:42:05 pm »

I  Say ,what,s a pedalo .  and was that the ships purser geting winched out two days ago ,he had a broken leg ,wonder how he got it .? on a cruise boat they do nothing except ensure the passengers are fine .is that not right ?
Wrecked pedalo picture attached
While a purser on a cruise ship is largely concerned with looking after passengers' well being, when something untoward happens, like the ship sinking, being a ships officer, he has a share of the responsibility for getting them off in a tidy manner.  This is something that the actual Captain appears to to have missed out on.  This guy was trying to help people in a situation way beyond his job description, and suffered a broken leg while doing so.
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Bryan Young

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #134 on: January 19, 2012, 06:46:35 pm »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16607837

Claims that the ship had done similar sail-byes before, but the earlier one shown was a few yards further from shore.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16563562

Shows the approved route, and the one actually taken.  Quite a difference,

Thats one heck of a big hole - the water must have been scooped in enormously quickly.  If there was an attempt to keep it upright by using the stabilisers, it is quite possible that it was overdone and the unwanted water ran to the "wrong" side.  If the hole was still below water, the water would still enter, but the extra weight would transfer to the starboard side.  Of course, the stabilisers only work when the ship is moving, so as it slowed down, the more likely it would be that the hole would be further submerged, more water would enter, and the ship would settle starboard side down.
Fortunate for many that they managed to find something to ground on, Med islands are not noted for wide shelving beaches, more for big cliffs and a huge drop into deep water.
Hang on a minute. That diagram shows only the PORT side having an impact...all the printed photos show huge damage to the STBD side..but no indication on the diagram where that may have ocurred. BY.
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Welsh Wizard

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #135 on: January 19, 2012, 07:17:27 pm »

Well, the Captain certainly hasn't covered himself with glory but I quite agree that it would be wrong for him to shoulder all of the blame, however 'convenient' that may be. Sounds as if there may have been a bit of a culture issue within the company.

Colin


Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE

Dave
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tobyker

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #136 on: January 19, 2012, 07:29:55 pm »

Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many
a. paying passengers,
b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax)
c  proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)

presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #137 on: January 19, 2012, 07:43:50 pm »

Quote
Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE

No Dave, I'm not. Of course the Captain is responsible if it was his action that caused the ship to hit the rocks, I'm not saying otherwise. The point I'm making is that if the Captain was not properly trained, or encouraged to follow potentially dangerous operational procedures by his employers then they are also culpable alongside him, not instead of him. After all, they appointed him - if they put an unreliable character in command of a 100,000+ ton cruise ship then their actions also need to be examined and any appropriate action taken. Otherwise they might do it again!

I would not be at all surprised if it turns out that Costa have been lax in their management and operational procedures, just as Townsend Thoresen were in the case of the Herald of Free Enterprise.

Colin
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CF-FZG

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #138 on: January 19, 2012, 08:18:06 pm »

Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many
a. paying passengers,
b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax)
c  proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)

presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.

'kinel - these chefs are well mollycoddled nowadays :kiss:

to answer your question - I'd guess that any crew involved with the pax would be trained in evac procedures :-))
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dodgy geezer

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #139 on: January 19, 2012, 08:39:02 pm »

Please chaps for info - on a cruise ship this size, how many
a. paying passengers,
b. paid staff eg stewards, dancers, chefs hairdressers etc,(B ark pax)
c  proper seamen who can hand, reef and steer (or the modern equivalent?)

presumably its only the last lot who can operate the pully-hauly to get the boats in the water.

About 3200 passengers and 1000 crew members. The able-seamen can presumably operate evacuation kit, while the B Ark types (barmen, entertainers, etc) should have the very valuable skills of crowd control, addressing the public in multiple languages and panic suppression...   
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justboatonic

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #140 on: January 19, 2012, 09:04:57 pm »

On a related note, can anyone shed light onto how 'capsized' came to mean a ship turning upside down!?
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Shipmate60

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #141 on: January 19, 2012, 09:31:14 pm »

Sorry Colin,
On this one you are incorrect.
It doesn't matter how many times the company allowed or turned a blind eye to any so called fly past.
The Master's primary responsibility is the safety of his ship.
No-one can overide that responsibility unless the Captain is removed from his duties by being unfit.
That responsibility is enshrined in International Maritime Law. That is how he is now under house arrest.
Endangering your ship is an International Criminal Offence which has delegated powers for the Port of Registry country to uphold.
The fact that he has the correct Maritime Qualifications deem him responsible and trained.
Unless he had a Port Exemption for Pilotage he should gave been carrying a local Pilot.
To get the exemption you need to display local knowledge.
Even with a pilot on board the Captain is responsible for the safety of the ship and can overide any order given by the pilot as he is responsible for the safety of his ship.

On UK vessel non-seafaring crew are requited to have a sea survival MCA recognised qualification and CPSC (Certificate of Proficiency in Survival Craft)
That includes non-seafarers such as Stewards/esses, Hairdressers etc.

Bob
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #142 on: January 19, 2012, 09:38:43 pm »


Colin you are So wrong with your post the Captain is ULTIMATLY responsible for HIS ship NO one else............Lest put it another way if you crashed your Yacht into another Boat it would be you that did it or would YOU blame the Wife as she was not watching as she was making the tea.YOU are in effect the captain and are ultimately responsable so is HE

Dave
I think we are missing the point here, it is a cruise ship, no one says El Capitano is not responsible, but so are the owners who have, not that I am aware of, made statements of condolences, regret etc but only statements mitigating their culpability.

Think of it this way how often does a Planes captain deviate of course for whatever reason, such as storms, for the comfort of passengers.

All approved by the owners and OK when things are fine, crash the plane, oops Pilot error not our fault.

A more recent example in Queensland waters.
A bulk ore Carrier ran aground in the barrier reef, at the subsequent trial the captain, who was held responsible under Queensland law, proved in his defence, that the owners had a bonus scheme in place which rewarded Captains taking measures, in this case a shortcut and being off course, to shorten travelling times and saving fuel.
The Owners subsequently bore the brunt of the fine. They had hung him out to dry.
You mean to tell me there are not unwritten similar instructions to Cruise captains, keep the Passengers happy no matter what, they are your number one priority etc. On the evidence these cruises have been "off course" before. And what of the number of crew sufficient for an emergency yes/no obviously no and who makes that decision the owners.
Don't get me wrong I am not for the Captain just saying there are others to blame and must take accountability.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #143 on: January 19, 2012, 10:07:48 pm »

RaaArtyGunner seems to be the only one actually reading my posts properly!

Bob, I already know all the points you have listed above. Yes OF COURSE the captain has full responsibility for the vessel and will have to account for himself and take whatever the consequences are. No way am I arguing that anything the company has or hasn't done mitigates his actions.

BUT! The company is on record as saying that his diversion of course was unauthorised and yet it would seem that they have been aware that he has been doing this on previous occasions. If they knew he was potentially endangering his ship by taking it too far inshore and did nothing about it are you suggesting that they should walk away scot free? Of course not! They should be in the dock alongside him for countenancing unsafe operating practice.

In every company there is (or should be) the equivalent of a Marine Superintendent who is effectively the professional line manager for the captains of the ships in the fleet. That person should be responsible for issuing operational practice 'standing orders' and ensuring that they are carried out. If the company has fallen short of their obligations to provide the safest possible seagoing environment for their customers and employees then they must be held accountable for that quite separately from any action taken against the captain of the ship.

There are plenty of similar examples in other fields. If a train driver passes a signal at red and causes a crash, it isn't just him in the dock but the people who trained him and the track operator as well if there were insufficient safety precautions or those that were in place didn't work due to poor maintenance.

Colin

 
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CF-FZG

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #144 on: January 19, 2012, 10:14:44 pm »

Think of it this way how often does a Planes captain deviate of course for whatever reason, such as storms, for the comfort of passengers.

All approved by the owners and OK when things are fine, crash the plane, oops Pilot error not our fault.

Strictly speaking - never.  

The captain will file a flight plan for his flight which will then be passed to ATC along the route, who will then allow him to request deviations along the route for various reasons, subject to any other traffic along the route.  Now say he's flying from Sidney to Los Angeles, a long portion of his flight is outside of ATC control, he's then allocated a 'slot' along a 'air corridor' (which can have quite a large vertical element), which he is not allowed to deviate from, except in an emergency, (when he's allowed to change altitude).  If he does move out of his 'slot' he's liable to prosecution for endangering an aircraft in flight.

I don't believe the same rules apply to shipping, who have other 'rules of the sea'.

Now! getting back to the discussion between Bob, Colin and WW ok2

As anyone who's been in a supervisory/managerial position will know, you can delegate anything to do with your job - apart from the responsibility that comes with it

However, while the ultimate responsibility for the ship's safety lies with the captain, the blame, (as it appears from various news reports), for the accident can be shared with the company.


Mark.

Mark.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #145 on: January 19, 2012, 11:21:05 pm »

If there's a good argument going I'll stick my tuppenny-worth in...    :D :D

There seems to be a bit of confusion here about what 'responsibility' means. it is quite clear that the Captain has ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of a ship. But, as CB says, there are other areas of responsibility as well. If someone has failed in these, again as CB says "...they must be held accountable for that quite separately from any action taken against the captain of the ship..."

This does not necessarily lower the level of responsibility or blame placed on the captain at all. It is ADDITIONAL responsibility for other people to do their jobs correctly. In this case it appears that the Owners had authorised close passes of Giglio before. Such passes are dangerous - you would expect the company to lay down safety rules for them. If they did not, then they were probably not doing their jobs properly.

The ship capsized rapidly, resulting in many deaths. Ships are not supposed to do that. If it turns out that the ships designers did not follow appropriate design guidelines, then they too may be blamed for not doing their jobs properly.

But none of this detracts from the obvious point that a Captain is not meant to bounce his ship off rocks while showing off...
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carlmt

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #146 on: January 19, 2012, 11:37:21 pm »

If there's a good argument going I'll stick my tuppenny-worth in...    :D :D
............................
The ship capsized rapidly, resulting in many deaths. Ships are not supposed to do that. If it turns out that the ships designers did not follow appropriate design guidelines, then they too may be blamed for not doing their jobs properly.

But none of this detracts from the obvious point that a Captain is not meant to bounce his ship off rocks while showing off...

Nowt to do with the designers in this case - the ship was designed to comply with the classification rules in force at the time.  Older ships are generally either brought up to modern spec on class rules - to comply with SOLAS............or scrapped if it is uneconomic to do so - especially European owned and operated vessels plying a passenger trade.  They wouldnt get insurance otherwise.  I cannot say that this is practice is universal worldwide as there have been many instances to the contrary - but these are usually in the 'third world' environments.

Anyone hear the report this evening on Radio 4 about 5:45 - an interview with a retired RN Captain?  He even admitted - on air - to racing an American aircraft carrier when he commanded HMS Gloucester.  Apparently, when his successor tried a similar stunt, there was an 'embarrasing' moment....he did not elaborate.

An interesting 'take' on the events - try and find the piece on line......Radio 4 'PM' programme.
Carl

Xtian29

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #147 on: January 19, 2012, 11:48:32 pm »

Quote
Such passes are dangerous
 are you seaman ?  This kind of passe is not dangerous at all - There is deep water very close to the shore.  Any navigation close to the shore just need that everybody on the wheelhouse do there job properly with preparation work on map - then GPS/radar/electronic maping navigation system but also checking men eyes alignement.

Then here there is a wheelhouse staff mistake !   

  
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davidsg1a

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #148 on: January 20, 2012, 09:48:37 am »

Your right xtitan, this a mistake of the whole bridge team and close passes are very common on ships due to navigational reasons, you would have a navigation officer monitering the position, the officer of the watch would be monitering position and there would be more than likely a jounior offericer of the watch aswell.

Im a seaman myself and know how bridge operation work and the ship i work on pases rocks and reefs about 100-200 yards away from us. so cloes passes are common.

david
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Colin Bishop

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Re: COSTA CONCORDIA SINKS
« Reply #149 on: January 20, 2012, 10:31:44 am »

Just a point about fixing position. With these mega ships the bow is in one place and the stern is somewhere else entirely, approaching a quarter of a mile away!

Colin
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