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Author Topic: front hydro planes?  (Read 3982 times)

silent running556

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front hydro planes?
« on: January 19, 2012, 10:33:00 PM »

Anyone who has them permanently fixe, at what angle do you fix them please?
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CF-FZG

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2012, 11:06:11 PM »

I'd fix them horizontal :-))


Mark
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silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 09:33:08 PM »

What sub do you have Mark?
Mine's a Robbe U47 originally.
Ian.
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CF-FZG

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 10:00:16 PM »

I got a Revell Type VIIc for xmas and I'm in the process of ordering the D&E fittings kit from Caswell for it, I intend having the front planes working.


Mark
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kazzer

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2012, 11:17:23 PM »

I have several models (of course) and I prefer the bow/forward planes to be fixed. My Skipjack, 212 and Gato perform perfectly with them in the horizontal position. I'm not an expert driver and I found trying to tinker with those plane controls simply too much trouble.
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silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2012, 08:54:26 PM »

Thanks guys. :-))
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Davy1

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2012, 11:18:48 AM »

Yes, my experience is that bow hydroplanes are not really worth controlling and they are awkward for linkages etc.

David
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Deep Diver

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2012, 03:15:12 PM »

I have used it both ways fixed and working, six of one - six of the other, but saying that my last two boat's are working. now the Holland doe's not have any at all and that worked.
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Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2012, 04:06:10 PM »

My TT Neptune has working bow planes, hooked up to the rear planes so as the rears go up...the fronts go down and vice versa. I've tried using the sub with and without the front planes, and to be quite honest I've never noticed hardly any difference running without the front planes.

My Darnell O class had fixed front planes...and worked fine.
My Darnell Type V11c had fixed front planes...and worked fine.
My Darnell X Craft had no front planes...and worked fine.
My Engel Patrick Henry had fixed front planes...and worked fine.

My scratch built nine foot Type 1X had operational front planes...and worked fine.
My Krick U25 had operational front planes...and worked fine. 

It's purely a personal thing, I think...best advice I could give you is to set the front planes in a horizontal position, but have them installed so you can move them manually. Try it with the planes horizontal...alter them by a degree or two if you wish and try it again. Find the best position for your boat...and then set the planes in that position and leave them.


Good luck...


Rich
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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2012, 04:55:53 PM »

I think working front vanes are a little like the difference between a model aeroplane fitted with ailerons, and one with rudder and elevator control only.

Both work well enough, but the one with aileron control gives you that little bit more subtlety of control at the expense of greater complexity.

On 1:1 subs, forward vanes are used for efficient control of depth when near the surface, once at depth, they become superfluous, and where practicable are either folded against the sides of the hull, as on Gato or S-class boats, or retracted into the hull like many Russian subs e.g. Akula, Typhoon etc.

Sail mounted vanes remain extended for practical reasons- not much room in a sail for retraction, and on a lot of our modern boats the vanes remain extended. Not sure on the reasoning behind that, but it certainly gives these boats a unique appearance.

I would say working forward planes is worth the trouble if you spend a lot of time at periscope depth, or perhaps if you're operating in shallow water, where the more subtle depth control of forward vanes would reap benefits.

There are some boats out there that go the other way and have no rear vane control e.g. Delta submersible, Graupner Shark, HFM Deep Dive VI.

Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2012, 05:30:57 PM »

I would beg to differ there, Andy...my Patrick Henry (fixed sail mounted front planes, remember) and fitted with one of the first of Ron Perrott's SALCON auto levellers would run at periscope depth without dipping a millimetre for as long as the battery lasted.

She would also maintain a perfectly level attitude running at depth...the video footage that Meridian TV (or whatever they were called back then) took of her in the Prince Regent swimming pool in Brighton would confirm that. The underwater cameraman took a long piece of video of her running about two inches off the bottom of the pool from end to end, and she didn't budge from that at all.


Rich
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silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2012, 09:21:13 PM »

I was wondering about doing that, how did you hook up th front and rear planes then Rich? My front room is a tip at the moment, bits of u-boat everywhere. :embarrassed:
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Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2012, 09:24:20 PM »

On which boat? The Neptune, you mean?


Rich
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silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2012, 09:39:43 PM »

yeah, any ?
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Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2012, 10:26:05 PM »

Both sets of planes are hooked up to the same servo, using a single arm. The rear planes go down...front planes go up, and vice versa.

I take a couple of pics tomorrow and post them here, it's ever so simple.


Rich

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silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2012, 07:20:43 PM »

Nice one, thanks mate. 8)
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Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2012, 09:35:41 AM »

Sorry for the delay in posting pic, old chap...




Top servo is the planes, bottom servo is the rudder.  As you can see, as the tx stick is moved the forward planes will go in the opposite direction to the rear ones. This will tilt the bows down and raise the stern up....boat is now starting to submerge under forward motion. Once the stern goes under, either level off with the planes (central position on the tx stick) and the boat will continue going down on a level angle, or input a bit of up on the tx stick to bring the boat to a level attitude at whatever depth you wish to run at.

Hope that makes sense...it's a lot easier to do it than to describe how to do it!


Rich
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Davy1

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2012, 12:03:10 PM »

That is interesting, Rich.

Linking them together with an EXTERNAL linkage takes away a lot of my objections to controllable bow planes.

(My usual practice is to take all connections, linkages etc. through the stern bulkhead of the WTC which is where the O ring seal is also. Servos and linkages at the forward end don't suit this type of design - access etc.)


David
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Patrick Henry

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2012, 02:36:51 PM »

Damn clever, these Chinese....!

The actual servo output arm is outside the wtc, running through a watertight seal to the servo...both link wires then hook up to the arm...the rear link goes direct to the rear planes, the front link goes forward to a full width cross arm, hooked up by a right angle arm, and the front planes simply connect to the cross arm.

It really is so simple in practice...and if you wish to set the vanes to operate in the same plane...ie, both to dive, both to surface, that's easily done by turning the right angled arm through 180*.

There's a chap up your way with a Neptune, David...next time you see him, have a crafty peek at his boat. All will be revealed...



Rich
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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2012, 04:18:59 PM »

If you take a peek at one of Dave Merriman's builds where front vanes are operational, you can see that all linkages run from the back. A 180 degree bend is formed on the control rod to enable it to interface with the servo operated rod. A reverse motion linkage would also work, although you're introducing a second pivot point and potential source of free play in the assembly.

silent running556

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #20 on: January 29, 2012, 08:22:34 PM »

Very useful info Rich thanks alot for that old bean.
Ian. :-))
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tmb51

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2012, 08:43:00 AM »

Hi

We've built two Robbe U47's with working planes, seem to work great.

Have installed a small servo to the front of the main tray and have used a magnet to connect from the servo to the main rod running through the front cap.  None of this running wires to the back and having to connect them up each time you reach the pond.  Slid the tray in lock in position and away you go..

Just an option!
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bbdave

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2012, 04:57:30 PM »

I built a waterproof box in the front of my U47 so the servo sat in that if i were to build another i'd try a traxxas waterproof servo in the front

Dave
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irishcarguy

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2012, 05:27:48 PM »

Not to hijack this tread but another question about the front dive planes. Everything i read says to put a Pitch Level Control on the rear dive planes, is this because most people just don't use the front planes?
Also since the sub  won't go beyond 2 meters which would give better leveling control front or rear
John
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Mick B.

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Re: front hydro planes?
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2012, 06:48:13 PM »

Not seen it done to be honest, although I don't doubt it's been tried and found lacking. On the boats I've seen with front planes, they tend to have a more subtle effect on the boats pitch than the rear planes, so perhaps the front planes just aren't aggressive enough to give effective control.
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