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Author Topic: Sabre Rattling?  (Read 4453 times)

RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2012, 10:05:26 PM »

Niether does the Government or immigration control. John.

Likewise in Australia <:( <:(
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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2012, 09:07:08 AM »

Hi RaaArtyGunner

I don't think you can accuse the British Armed Forces of being complacent especially in this day and age, thirty years ago the Royal Navy was very complacent in believing that their ships could retake the Falklands with very little loss to ships and men, but you complain that we should stop sabre rattling.  I think you should read history and realise that it has been the Argentinians who have been sabre rattling the only difference this time is that we have reacted accordingly to show them that we will defend the islands instead of ignoring them like the last time.  The 'I can win any time' attitude is not deserved in this case we are providing a strong opposition to any attack, once again something that was not done last time, the big difference this time is that we are ready for them and by providing a show of force to make them understand that they have no reasonable chance of success of attacking the Falklands.  The examples you provided are all valid but do not apply to this situation, its like the Battle of Britain 1940 if we did not have that ditch (I mean channel) between us we would have been defeated like France, the sea between Argentina and the Falklands is the same, the enemy has to come to you not vice versa.
Regards

Nick B
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2012, 12:37:25 PM »

Bottom line never underestimate your enemy, no matter how superior you feel you might be, or how much better your technology. Look at the US v Taliban???????????????

The previous examples, served to illustrate what can happen, when you don't get on top of/stop the sabre rattling by either side.

The Sky hawks may be old, but what of their missiles, last time they used Exocets to good advantage with inferior delivery platforms. This time??????

Regrettably those at the top forget the lessons learnt and have to relearn them all over again.

One of the posters seems to indicate, that similar conditions, Politically and military, exist  today as back then, hence the Argentinians are rattling their Sabres again.

Will history repeat itself. Hope not.
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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2012, 01:05:42 PM »

Hi RaaArtyGunner

Please don't take offence at what I am saying in this post but you do seem to be confusing the style of fighting employed in Afghanistan and Iraq with the only way of fighting an island nation such as the Falklands.  I agree that all the might and tech used by the US and the allies in the Middle East is a hit and miss kind of war/conflict where the enemy is not a nation but a group of men who use guerrilla sytle tactics but the only way Argentininans forces to attack is fly or sail across an open stretch of water for all to see.  Also not to be a nit picker but the old Skyhawk did not launch the Exocet missiles which did so much damage, it was the Super E's coming at supersonic speeds at low altitude, and whilst you may think that lessons have not been learnt or forgotten the Type 45 is the direct result of the mistakes made by the Navy 30 years ago being corrected.  I hope it does not come to war but if does the Falklands will be defended with an over welming force to make sure that what happened 30 years ago does not happen again.
Regards,

Nick B
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Netleyned

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2012, 01:16:33 PM »

I type 45 does not constitute a task force.
OK its multitasking but it is limited against
a squadron of ships from the mainland.

A task force from Argie will be there before a couple of ships
from UK that is if we have a couple to send

Ned
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Shipmate60

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2012, 01:22:10 PM »

RaaArtyGunner,
Politicians never learn the lessons of history.
In Afghanistan the British Empire could not subdue the locals and we lost a whole army there.
The Russians tried and failed using overwhelming firepower.
Why should we suceed.
This is a typical "Mission Creep" scenario.
The reason for being there was to remove the terrorist training camps then went to invasion!!

Bob
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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2012, 01:38:14 PM »

Ned

Remember it only required one ship (Tirpitz) to tie up the entire British home fleet just by its presence in Norwegian waters in WW2!
Last time we had to retake the islands from the Argentininans the idea this time is to prevent them, would they take the risk of loosing a large proportion of their air force and Navy when last time they were virtually unoposed, they would not take the risk of leaving their country undefended similar to the fact that we would not send every aircraft and ship to some far ends of the world leaving the UK undefended.
The Argentinian fleet still only consists of the WW2 vessels apart from the Type 42 destroyers we flogged them thirty years ago, talk about selling to the enemy!
Regards

Nick B
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kinmel

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2012, 03:39:36 PM »


Last time we had no weapon systems in the south Atlantic with which  to destroy the enemy airfields and retaliate for the bombs dropped.

Now we have Trafalgar Class subs down there carrying Tomahawk missiles and Spearfish torpedoes, an entirely different kettle of fish.

If the Argentinians drop bombs on The Falklands next time, they just might get some landing on their country too.
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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2012, 04:18:11 PM »

Last time we had no weapon systems in the south Atlantic with which  to destroy the enemy airfields and retaliate for the bombs dropped.

Now we have Trafalgar Class subs down there carrying Tomahawk missiles and Spearfish torpedoes, an entirely different kettle of fish.

If the Argentinians drop bombs on The Falklands next time, they just might get some landing on their country too.

I think it would legal too, the UN declared that the Falklands were British in 1982 after we retook the islands.  I don't want to see us retaliate by destroying their mainland defences but if they attack when they know international law has decread that it is not their territory. Perhaps the  only way to prevent massive loss of life maybe is to target military targets in Argentina, let us hope they see sense and act in accordance to international law and leave the Falklands alone.

Nick B
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DavieTait

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2012, 04:28:52 PM »

A single Tomahawk missile can put an airfield out of action for days just by destroying the cross over section in the runways ( makes a rather large and deep hole !! ) so 6 fired from a UK SSN would put all the major Argentinian airfields out of action so they might get their aircraft over the Falklands but they'd not be able to launch again as the airfields would be hit between raids so buying us the time to reinforce the islands defences.

The only dodgy thing is that the Argentinians base their Mirages and Super Etendarts aboard the Brazilian carrier Sau Paulo although Brazil wouldn't want to get involved , they would loose far too much trade with the UK and EU if they did
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Davie Tait,
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kinmel

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2012, 04:57:02 PM »

The only dodgy thing is that the Argentinians base their Mirages and Super Etendarts aboard the Brazilian carrier Sau Paulo although Brazil wouldn't want to get involved , they would loose far too much trade with the UK and EU if they did

Such action would be clearly hostile; I doubt a 50 year old ship could survive a Spearfish attack, let us hope the Belgrano story is well remembered
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DavieTait

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2012, 05:37:37 PM »

I'd be willing to bet that if the Mirages and Super E's are on the Sau Paulo and hostilities break out the captain will have them struck below and the pilots/engineers interred just to keep Brazil officially out of any fighting. Would be very handy for us if that happened as the bulk of the effective airforce the Argentinians have is their 40 year old Mirages and Super E's
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Davie Tait,
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john s 2

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #37 on: February 05, 2012, 05:46:35 PM »

The problem with planes is that they fly and somewhat quickly. If the planes are at precent carrier based then to move them onshore would be a quick job. As said its not likely that Brazil would want to get involved. I do wonder what we are not being told? Is Britain playing safe or does the MOD know more? John.
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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #38 on: February 05, 2012, 06:31:03 PM »

John s

Of course the MOD are keeping info to them selves after all there has to be secrets in all wars or potential wars.
They have learnt from the last falkland conflict not to trust the media with any info regarding the military.  The best example was the planned attack on the Argentinian airfields and aircraft by the SAS which was cancelled because the BBC announced the night before the attack that what a perfect target that the Argentinian aircraft all lined up on the runway were and how easy the SAS could destroy them!
The other was the announcement also made by the BBC about the planned attack on Goose Green the day before the actual attack, how many lives were lost because of the BBC announcements?
If the media kept its mouth shut regarding what could happen and kept to reporting news that has happened less lives would have been lost on both sides.  It made many people question whose side the BBC was on!

Nick B
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john s 2

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #39 on: February 05, 2012, 07:34:45 PM »

Theres a lot of truth in what you say Nick. Sadly modern reporting can and does cause problems for the military. I wonder if saterlite imaging is showing the movement of troops boats plane etc, in Argentina? John.
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RaaArtyGunner

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #40 on: February 05, 2012, 10:36:52 PM »

Am not taking any offence, just being Devils Advocate.

It beggars the question that something has changed, ie politically, armed might etc, otherwise their would be no sabre rattling by Argentina and the response.

Regretably the UK who are politically correct to madness, like us adhere to rules of engagement which cost unnecessary lives, but not the enemy.

Don't forget the time delay, in getting your "forces to the field of battle", their vulnerability along the way, and maintaining them whilst there.

Forget about blaming the press, you can't hide that kind of movement of ships and equipment. Also why is it not conceivable, that stuff was leaked to the press, to "frighten" Argentina, look out the big stick is coming. Well hello, I have time before it gets here and I wont make the same mistakes twice.

Israel beat Egypt on previous occasions, but they (Egypt) learnt valuable lessons, awaited their time, and succeeded, although it was short lived, only because their Arab allies failed to stick to the plan and rally in time.

The old saying a stitch in time saves nine is never applied. We only deal with crisis. We are too powerful, it will go away, if not we can and will deal with it, sounds familiar.

Why wouldn't other counties in the region support Argentina this time round, particularly if it serves their political interests/strategies.

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raflaunches

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Re: Sabre Rattling?
« Reply #41 on: February 05, 2012, 11:42:12 PM »

Yes something has changed, the discovery of oil which makes countries act like idiots to control it and to prevent others from having it.
The rules of engagement are there for a reason, if we did not act in accordance with proper laws and rules we are no better than the criminals who break them, you may say this is pc gone mad but you have to have rules otherwise chaos reigns.
Argentina may have allies in the same region but can't imagine them getting involved  in a conflict that they may risk upsetting not only a friend like the UK but possibly loose all respect and relations with the rest of the UN whose decision was made quite clear that the Falklands are a British territory and protectorate and to attack it would go against international law.
I understand that you are providing the other side of debate but the chances of Argentina expecting to retake the islands by force is very low, last time we needed a carrier(s) and the Sea Harriers to provide air defence against their fighters and bombers because we had nothing else to do the job, this time the defences have been built up to prevent any attack and Typhoons and the Type45 are perfect for the job because they are already in the area instead of being on the far side of the Falklands like the carriers had to be last time to prevent their loss.
You say that you can't blame the press but you can, if they had not reported on possible attacks how many lives would have been saved?
If the aircraft had been destroyed on the ground the ships in the task force would not have suffered the losses that they did, and if Goose Green had gone as planned imagine how many British and Argentinian lives would have been saved instead it was a bloodbath for both sides!

Nick B
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