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Author Topic: New RFAs  (Read 2767 times)

Bryan Young

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New RFAs
« on: February 23, 2012, 06:23:47 PM »

It takes a lot to make me really lose my temper....but this little lot has done it in spades.
I know that "print" isn't easy to read on this site, but if you can download it or enlarge it it becomes clearer.
There's a section where a Government "spokesman" said that there was neither the capacity to build such ships in the UK, but that
[u"UK had no provenance in building tankers".!!!!!!!!
A bare faced lie and a lorry load of sheer cant.
For a start, the design of these "new" ships appear to be taken directly off the plans for the existing "Wave" class ("Ruler" and "Knight"). Then to go on and say that they were to replace ships built in the 1960s is total rubbish. He was referring to the "Ol" class that were withdrawn quite a while ago.
So who, and when, passed on the specs for the "Waves" to the Koreans? The Scottish yard that buit the "Waves" is still (as far as I know) still viable...although in a state of hibernation. The people (unemployed) are still there, the skills are still there. There's something dreadfully wrong with this decision.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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john s 2

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 06:40:24 PM »

Once again our government lets down the British worker. Price is not everything. What ever happened to made in Britain? To me they look like cut price dual purpose vessels. Will be carrying helicopters. Will the boats be used in a deployment role? John.
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gingyer

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 06:47:22 PM »

Yes BUT.........
No British yards tendered for the work!!!

I agree they should be built in the uk but we cannot complain
If the yards don't tender

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john s 2

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 06:55:45 PM »

Sadly their does seem to be some controversy here. the british yards claim to have tendered. Who knows? John.
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gingyer

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 06:59:02 PM »

From what I have read and understood
Everyone tendered at the design stage then once the design was chosen
No british yard tendered on the final design

The design I believe is a British one but I believe it should be built
In the uk
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bobk

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 07:09:03 PM »

It's probably not that the yards 'failed to tender', but following a long and painful 'cost plus' historical process in which MOD suppliers have been almost encouraged to keep jacking up the price and extending delivery dates that has lead to the MOD losing confidence in getting a bottom line contract price and commissioning date.  Look at the sorry story of our two new 'money pit'  aircraft carriers.

Re-read the article " . . . none submitted a final bid".  Still playing the cost plus game so the job can be hung out almost indefinitely.  It may rather be as simple as South Korea being able to promise a final price and completion date.  I used to work in MOD contracting design.  

The groundbreaking and revolutionary HMS Dreadnaught was completed in a year and a day between laying down and going to sea in 1906. Capacity to stun the world with this kind of development and speed is what Britain has lost.  HMS Queen Elizabeth was laid down in 2009, but is unlikely to enter service until 2020.
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richtea

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 07:55:20 PM »

No doubt that by 2020 the manning of RN ships will also be put out to lowest cost tender.  >:-o >:-o :((
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john s 2

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 08:08:31 PM »

Does that mean all the crew will be Chinese or Indian? John.
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bobk

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 08:15:25 PM »

No doubt that by 2020 the manning of RN ships will also be put out to lowest cost tender. 

Extending another government initiative, they will be crewed under 'Work Experience' projects from local Job Centres, recruited amongst 'Neet' unemployed, whilst just being paid Job Seekers Allowance and with little prospect of being offered a job at the end of their tour of duty.  Just get another batch of 'Neet' in from the Job Centre.
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Xtian29

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 08:20:30 PM »

Quote
Does that mean all the crew will be Chinese or Indian? John.

I heard from a RN Admiral that there is no way to keep the first aircraft carrier in service when the second will be comissionned because of shortage of crew with the RN ... Chinese or Indian crew is a solution  ... and flag of convenience !

Xtian
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tassie48

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 08:39:17 PM »

what a joke whats wrong with building in the UK we in Australia are  building new warships in Spain you guys have a vast history of ship building tassie48
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2012, 09:43:46 AM »

Sorry Bryan,
I've accidentally deleted some photos, please can you repost them and I'll move back to the right place.    :embarrassed:
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2012, 10:27:17 AM »

Sorry Bryan,
I've accidentally deleted some photos, please can you repost them and I'll move back to the right place.    :embarrassed:

Tut Tut Martin.....you really ought to know better. No problem. Probably this afternoon, with an update. Bryam.
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2012, 11:15:04 AM »

The rectification..........
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Circlip

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 11:42:13 AM »

"Britain should concentrate on research and sub-con manufacturing to economical sources" Think this is what Sir Clive Sinclair said back in the sixties/seventies.

  Brit design? Hmm may be good, at least they'll be built in time and on buget Something we seem to be incapable of.

  Don't matter where they're being built, Still be modelled on here.

  Regards   Ian
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bobk

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 12:09:30 PM »

  Don't matter where they're being built, Still be modelled on here.
  Regards   Ian

Brilliant !   Lots of new work for British model makers, and hopefully more UK based business for firms like Deans and Fleetscale etc.

Bob K
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Liverbudgie

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 12:24:28 PM »

Bryan,

Just a little correction, the current "Waves" were built in England at Barrow in fact.

LB
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 02:20:16 PM »

"Britain should concentrate on research and sub-con manufacturing to economical sources" Think this is what Sir Clive Sinclair said back in the sixties/seventies.

  Brit design? Hmm may be good, at least they'll be built in time and on buget Something we seem to be incapable of.

  Don't matter where they're being built, Still be modelled on here.

  Regards   Ian
Not quite fair to comment on something you appear to know nothing about. As with all new / radical designs there will be teething problems. Since entering service the 2 "Waves" have done sterling service ....and with only 2 "front-line" refuelling ships to hand, they've both been more than stretched to serve in so many far apart theatres. Seems to me that the Koreans are going to be peresented with an already proven design. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 02:22:27 PM »

Bryan,

Just a little correction, the current "Waves" were built in England at Barrow in fact.

LB
Rubbish. They were built in Govan. Built alongside Bulwark and Albion. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 02:33:03 PM »

So sorry LB.....both of us right! one in Barrow, the other in Govan! Apologies. Bryan.
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lawrence

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 03:32:59 PM »

At least it will reduce our carbon footprint and keep the EU happy!!!
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Circlip

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 04:10:22 PM »

Quote
Not quite fair to comment on something you appear to know nothing about.

  Please correct which part is erroneous in my reply.

 Costwise, every piece of Kit (Be it Boats, Aircraft or Fighting vehicles) have been delivered Late and over budget, main reasons being constantly moving the goal posts instead of getting the show on the road.

  Designwise, no doubt the original design of the class it is intended to replace will have been de-archived to start again and note I say ORIGINAL and not the final modified and built version.

  Foreign built? Yep and if they don't build on time and for the price tendered, they get screwed on penalty clauses, so they build to the set of instructions issued with the contract and not the constant "How about trying this" at every verse end.


   Regards   Ian.

 Just as a bottom line, DON'T assume anyone Else's Knowledge (Or lack thereof)
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2012, 05:38:19 PM »

Erroneous? Just about everything.
For a start, much of the equipment (kit) on board an RFA is pretty much standard RN.
This is somewhat duplicated by the fitting of much “off the shelf” stuff that is fitted within a commercial ship. The communications, weaponry and so on are prime examples. As is the level of damage control, fire fighting and “protection” systems. Nothing radical there.
The replenishment gear is always being modified and changed…often during refits, but also during the build. But probably this side of things will be a retrofit after the “bare boat” is delivered. (GEC seem to be the prime provider of RAS rig ideas).
     ALL MoD ships have to be upgraded / modified as time dictates. This is always quite evident within the aviation capability.
     When the “Ols” were introduced in the mid-late sixties the aircraft then in service were primarily the Wasp (for frigates) and various types of “Wessex”. The “Ols” could operate up to 8 A/S “Wessex” around the clock. But then the “Sea King” arrived on the scene. Much greater capability. Almost overnight the job that took a squadron of Wessex aircraft could be done by 2 Sea Kings. More modifications required.
   Then came the “Merlin”. Bigger than a Sea King, and so wouldn’t fit the ships hangars. Getting the drift?
These changes to “kit” (including aircraft) can, and do, occur during a build. You have no idea of the changes required either then or later to operate, maintain an aircraft on board a relatively “small” ship. Still have to be able to maintain other aircraft such as the L.Y.N.X (I remember the last time I tried to use that word!).
So, up to now, I haven’t been able to agree with you.
Now to a possible misapprehension on your part.
The “New Ships” are not intended to “replace” the “Waves”…..they are relatively new ships in their own right. The ships that have been de-commissioned are the old “Ols”. There were 3 of them, backed up by others of various classes. Now we are presently down to only 2, and world events have proved that only 2 front line “tankers” are insufficient. So the plans for the new ships haven’t been “de-archived” at all. Of course their will be changes to the original design…be rather silly not to really. But that’s just evolution.
The amount of “work” that will need to be done after delivery will be monumental..
In conclusion, I iterate my statement that you don’t know the half of it.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2012, 06:12:41 PM »

Will the decks be of a thick enough material to support the equipment/vehicles that will be moving about on them, or is that part of the ongoing learning process, forgotten since the last AORs came into service?
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Bryan Young

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Re: New RFAs
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2012, 07:44:23 PM »

Will the decks be of a thick enough material to support the equipment/vehicles that will be moving about on them, or is that part of the ongoing learning process, forgotten since the last AORs came into service?
Not quite sure what you mean here. Strengh of the flight deck? What vehicles have you in mind? The RAS decks are really only there to support the weight of the various winches and so on that carry the weight of the wires connecting the two ships plus the weight of a fully loaded (oil filled) series of hoses. Heavy, but not extremely so. Or were you talking about the flight deck?
I've got no experience with the Merlin helo, but a fully equipped Sea King would be in the region of 12 tons. In awkward weather conditions they would land hard enough to fully compress the Oleos. And then keep the aircraft sort of pressed down on the deck until the lashing down crew finished their job.
The only "vehicles" frisking around would probably be Fork-lift trucks (seldom) and palletrons. But they wouldn't be used if the aircraft was on deck.
That answer your question? Cheers BY.
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