Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: Help needed on major project  (Read 4490 times)

mallenders

  • Guest
Help needed on major project
« on: March 03, 2012, 02:03:34 PM »

I've just been given a rather old and fragile (large!) pond yacht, that has been in the family for around 50 years. Her name is White Wings and she's believed to be c. 100 years old and is in need of some tender loving care.

As you will (hopefully) see from the pictures, the deck has been removed and she's been stripped back to bare wood.
I think we've got all of the sails and there are some of the original booms and rigging included.

I plan to completely refurbish her and also add radio gear in a sensitive way to enable it to be removed without any sign of it having been there.

First things first, I'm a bit daunted by the task ahead and would love to hear people's thoughts as to where they would start and then what steps they would take to do this beautiful boat justice. Also, any other sources of useful information would be gratefully received.

If anyone is local to the Guildford area and would be willing to take some time to visit to help with advice then I'm very happy to make lots of cups of tea!

Many thanks in advance.






















Logged

rmaddock

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #1 on: March 03, 2012, 07:04:04 PM »

In what sense is it fragile? A canoe hull like that can be remarkably strong.
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 10,316
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2012, 07:28:30 PM »

You might do better to contact the Vintage Model Yacht Group http://www.vmyg.org.uk/ as they specialise in this sort of thing and offer to try and identify old model yachts.

Colin
Logged

mallenders

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #3 on: March 03, 2012, 10:17:02 PM »

In what sense is it fragile? A canoe hull like that can be remarkably strong.

She's probably not all that fragile. I'm just a little nervous about handling a boat so old!
Logged

mallenders

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #4 on: March 03, 2012, 10:18:05 PM »

You might do better to contact the Vintage Model Yacht Group http://www.vmyg.org.uk/ as they specialise in this sort of thing and offer to try and identify old model yachts.

Colin

Many thanks, Colin. I shall take a look at the site and see what help I can rustle up.
Logged

mallenders

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2012, 12:12:22 PM »

More questions from me...
I've started a general tidy up of the hull, both inside and out, and she now has a cradle all varnished and looking a hell of a lot more shiny and smooth than she does!

Here are a few areas that I'm keen to get people's views on:

1) I've already started the process of cleaning up the existing varnish / sealant inside the hull. I can't tell what it was, but it was pretty cracked and flaky.
So far, I've focussed on removing any loose material, as I'm wary of taking it completely back to bare wood.
I plan to reseal the interior with resin, and am considering using this over the existing remains of whatever has been used to seal the interior of the hull.
Good plan, or idiotic?! If the latter, then would you recommend a complete stripping back to wood with nitromors?

2) I had a recommendation to use 1mm ply for the base layer of deck. I've measured the gap between the deck 'ribs' and the underside of the flanges that top the mast and rudder tubes. This gives me a gap of c.4 - 5mm, so I was considering using a slightly thicker ply to avoid an unsightly gap between the final planking and these flanges. (I'm working on the assumption that the 6mm Lime planking I've seen is only 0.5mm)
- Will this work, or should I consider two layers of ply, then the planking to help me cope with the various gentle curves of the deck?
- Or, should I stick to 1mm ply, then the planking, and then simply make up something out of wood to look nice around these flanges?
- Would you recommend another type of wood other than lime for the planking?
- I may be being overly ambitious, but I aim to use a darker wood for a central king plank, and around the outside of the deck. Does mahogany make sense for this job?
I'll probably regret it, but I plan to joggle and shape carefully to make her deck a real focus.

3) The exterior of the hull is currently bare wood, and is in reasonable shape. Whatever has been used to seal between the planking from the outside is now quite loose and crumbling in places. My plan was to use a suitably resilient filler, after removing anything that is already loose, then a weak PVA mixture to seal before priming.
Does this make sense?

4) As the boat was originally built for use with Braine gear (I think), the rudder post goes right through the hull, with the opening above deck.
To ensure that she retains as much authenticity as possible, I was planning on buying a nice brass Braine quadrant to be attached to the top of the rudder post.
- Can I link to the Braine quadrant from the rudder servo above decks? i.e. does the quadrant move with the rudder?

5) Hatches - I have yet to completely decide on what the hatch cover(s) will look like, but I plan to make them as discrete as possible.
- Do you have a favourite way of making your hatches watertight?

6) Bespoke brass fittings.
The aforementioned flanges topping the mast tubes look to be brazed in place. The flange for the main mast is missing, so I'll need to either find an equivalent or have one made. Alternatively, I could always just replace them for both the front and main mast.
- For fitting a through-deck mast, are these readily available? I haven't seen anything in my browsing of the usual model shops or sites.

I could go on with dozens more questions, but I am really very conscious of abusing people's generosity, so I'll ask more as and when things come to mind.
Logged

Brian Roberts

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2012, 02:12:08 PM »

Hi Mallenders

Sorry that I'm not able to answer all your questions but I'd like to mention that I covered the deck of my Atlantis with limewood and mahogany strip and treated it with Tung Oil.

Your yacht should look splendid when it's finished and good luck with the restoration.

Regards

Brian
Logged

rmaddock

  • Guest
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2012, 03:47:51 PM »

1) I've already started the process of cleaning up the existing varnish / sealant inside the hull. I can't tell what it was, but it was pretty cracked and flaky.
So far, I've focussed on removing any loose material, as I'm wary of taking it completely back to bare wood.
I plan to reseal the interior with resin, and am considering using this over the existing remains of whatever has been used to seal the interior of the hull.
Good plan, or idiotic?! If the latter, then would you recommend a complete stripping back to wood with nitromors?
I suppose the only problem with not stripping "properly" is if you got some chemical reaction between the new resin and the original sealant. Otherwise, I'd be tempted to remove the loose stuff and then just resin away. Could you test the resin on a small area? Or even remove some of the original and resin it elsewhere?

2) I had a recommendation to use 1mm ply for the base layer of deck. I've measured the gap between the deck 'ribs' and the underside of the flanges that top the mast and rudder tubes. This gives me a gap of c.4 - 5mm, so I was considering using a slightly thicker ply to avoid an unsightly gap between the final planking and these flanges. (I'm working on the assumption that the 6mm Lime planking I've seen is only 0.5mm)
- Will this work, or should I consider two layers of ply, then the planking to help me cope with the various gentle curves of the deck?
- Or, should I stick to 1mm ply, then the planking, and then simply make up something out of wood to look nice around these flanges?
- Would you recommend another type of wood other than lime for the planking?
- I may be being overly ambitious, but I aim to use a darker wood for a central king plank, and around the outside of the deck. Does mahogany make sense for this job?
I'll probably regret it, but I plan to joggle and shape carefully to make her deck a real focus.
How about putting a strip on top of the ribs first to take up the spare depth, then doing the 1mm ply with planks job?  Making it thinker will make it heavier.....which isn't necessarily good. You seem to have plenty of deck beams in the boat so I don't think you need the thickness for strength's sake.
Mahogany? Why not, if that's what floats your boat! Boom, boom!  %)
Have you seen this chap? http://www.twigfolly.com/, he does a nice line in planks.

3) The exterior of the hull is currently bare wood, and is in reasonable shape. Whatever has been used to seal between the planking from the outside is now quite loose and crumbling in places. My plan was to use a suitably resilient filler, after removing anything that is already loose, then a weak PVA mixture to seal before priming.
Does this make sense?
PVA seems dangerous if you're then going to put varnish on her. I'd fill the gaps then wipe down with white spirit. This will clean the wood and also raise the loose fibres which you can lightly sand off before varnishing.

4) As the boat was originally built for use with Braine gear (I think), the rudder post goes right through the hull, with the opening above deck.
To ensure that she retains as much authenticity as possible, I was planning on buying a nice brass Braine quadrant to be attached to the top of the rudder post.
- Can I link to the Braine quadrant from the rudder servo above decks? i.e. does the quadrant move with the rudder?
Why not? Perhaps you could have a tiller arm on the rudder shaft below decks?

5) Hatches - I have yet to completely decide on what the hatch cover(s) will look like, but I plan to make them as discrete as possible.
- Do you have a favourite way of making your hatches watertight?
My hatches aren't water-tight so I shan't comment here.  :embarrassed:

6) Bespoke brass fittings.
The aforementioned flanges topping the mast tubes look to be brazed in place. The flange for the main mast is missing, so I'll need to either find an equivalent or have one made. Alternatively, I could always just replace them for both the front and main mast.
- For fitting a through-deck mast, are these readily available? I haven't seen anything in my browsing of the usual model shops or sites.
Dunno! Sorry.

I could go on with dozens more questions, but I am really very conscious of abusing people's generosity, so I'll ask more as and when things come to mind.
Go on! Abuse away!  {-)

I hope any of these ramblings helped.
Robert.
Logged

roycv

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 2,332
  • Location: S.W. Herts
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2012, 04:31:51 PM »

Hi you have quite a task on your hands!  I have a similar slightly smaller boat from that era.

The Braine steering quadrant fits over the rudder stock.  I would suggest a simple wire or pair of lines connection to the line of holes in the quadrant for controlling the rudder.  This would stop you from altering the internal integrity of the boat at the stern where the rudder tube goes through to exit on deck.
It can also be taken off easily.

I am sure Russel Potts (Chairman Vintage model yacht group) would love to see pictures of your boat.
The Braine steering was first in use in 1904 and although Vane steering took over as the main system, Vane was invented quite a few years before.

The above advice from previous responders is practical and will work, but...

 I would not use any glass/ epoxy methods on it.  The boat is still in one piece after 100 years without this technology so why start now?

By all means use modern adhesives, but varnish /  paint is very effective.  Do balance what you do outside with what you do inside as far as painting goes, this should stop any wood movement.

Also if you at some time want to realise any value on the model then it should be as close to original as possible.

I speak as the owner of a 100+ year old model yacht and the previous owner had covered the inside with black roofing paint, it was not all that effective either and defies attempts to remove it.

I am (on and off) trying to get it back on the water, I started by allowing the planks to soak up some water to fill the gaps in the planking.  I did this in a very controlled way and it was quite successful.

Getting the deck off and seeing how the boat was constructed revealed some rather thin planking, after original sanding.

The mast on my boat is stepped on the keel and so water can get down through the loose fitting brass cover on deck, and so it goes on.
Good luck with your project and look forward to seeing progress.
I love to see old model boats get back on the water, For me 'sympathetic' is the way to go,
best of luck.
Roy
Logged

mallenders

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Guildford, UK
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #9 on: May 19, 2013, 03:51:03 PM »

I haven't posted in a while, but have now made some significant progress, in that the hull is prepped and ready for paint, the ply sub-deck is cut and ready to fit and planking can start once I've sorted out how my control lines are going to work. And now I'm stuck!


Looking around at various similar sized and rigged yachts, I see that most people seem to control the mainsheet by running through one fairlead from the middle of the deck. Some further aft than others. My problem is that the main spar under the deck travels right down the middle of the boat, so I can't use a fairlead in any position in the centre of the deck unless it comes through the hatch. The boat still has some of the original running rigging attached and this includes two lines running under the main boom with a block on each line. If I use one winch servo for the main, is it possible to use a closed loop under the deck with two lines attached to this same loop and running through two fairleads, one each side of the deck? I'm close to not being able to do very much more work on the boat until I finalise my running rigging, so any help would be appreciated.


Thanks in advance.
Logged

mrpenguin

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 286
  • Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #10 on: May 19, 2013, 11:55:26 PM »

@Mallenders:
Further to your question re radio control and fairlead positioning:
The type of servos and their positioning depends on the sail plan. I would think it likely that you would need a reasonable sail winch. Here is one that may be appropriate:
http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__18742__Vigor_VSD_11AYMB_MG_HV_Extra_Large_360_Degree_Winch_Servo_0_75sec_50kg_150g.html
 
The endless loop setup below deck is a good idea, but needs some careful planning before the deck goes on. I have seen an endless loop setup that someone built (no photos sorry) - it was all made as a working piece then wangled in through the hatch - great when you have a tangle or need to rethread.... mounting for sailwinch needs to be pretty strong as there are some big forces involved at times....
For radio gear there is some budget 2.4GHz gear about that will all go below deck - for example, simple transmitter with receiver from hobbyking.com for under US$30 - I have a number of these, they are great. Example is this 4 channel unit, simple to set up, no need for a computer to program it. The only limiter is that it does not have endpoint adjustment. http://hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__8338__Hobby_King_2_4Ghz_4Ch_Tx_Rx_V2_Mode_2_.html

Re the fairleads - can you confirm what the sail plan is please? I note from your first photo that there are two masts..... the positioning of the fairleads will of course relate to where the sails fit and what type of sail.
 
It may even be that you could get away with no sail control at all.  Here is an example of a Thames barge sailing with nothing but a rudder...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uuxxt_UcvXo
 
 
Logged
Amateur at work...

mallenders

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Guildford, UK
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 05:27:18 PM »

Thanks for the response.
I've bought a couple of drum servos, one for the main plus one for the mizzen, and a standard rudder servo, I just need to work out how to set up the running rigging to control the main and mizzen sails. They are both gaff rigged, but I plan to keep the gaffs moving with the main and mizzen, plus there are two jibs that I plan to leave to their own devices!


I think I may have solved the fairlead issue by bringing up the line from the loop for the main to one side and then running the mainsheet through a guide attached to the middle of the deck under the main boom. I can then replicate this for the mizzen, as it will have it's own continuous loop running under the decks.


Once the radio gear all arrives, I'll just have to have a tinker around with things to see if there is enough travel in the loops to allow the full range of movement in the booms. I have a horrible feeling that the servos may not be man enough for the job!


I'm struggling to find decent brass hardware for the various fittings. I'm looking for all parts needed to support the masts, including steel lines, the associated parts to keep the masts tied down to the deck, plus brass fittings to attach the bowsprit to the deck, mast bands, spreaders etc. etc. I've seen some sites in the US for made-to-order parts, but I'm trying to not need a re-mortgage!


Any ideas?
Logged

mrpenguin

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 286
  • Location: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 11:30:52 PM »

For a large range of ready made parts, have a look at www.radioyachtsuppliesaustralia.com
Nothing much in brass, but lots in stainless. They ship globally. At worst, some of the parts would serve as a pattern for what you need. They can supply the rigging wire you mentioned also. There are pretty detailed plans of most of the SailSetc range around the net...
 
If you are intending to go with brass, then you may have to make the parts yourself - I made a couple of bits for a recent project with brass plate and solder. Considering the boat is so old, the parts would have been handmade before.. ok2  You could probably get a good idea of the design of the parts from some of the old 1:1 boats still around...
 
 
Re the winches, there are a number of techniques to get enough travel and torque for the job. There are endless possibilities in pulleys and reduction, and the travel required can be varied by moving the sheeting point in relation to the gooseneck/mast. A gaff rigged boat also does not need to have the sails out at right angles when running with the wind (like the Bermuda rig) thus reducing the required sheet travel.
Logged
Amateur at work...

slug

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 432
  • Location: newark notts
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2013, 08:06:51 PM »

Robert hobbs did a restoration in model boats...maybe helpful  slug
Logged

JayDee

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 930
  • Model Boat Mayhem is the VERY Best !
  • Location: Warrington Cheshire.
    • JOHN DOWD
Re: Help needed on major project
« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2013, 08:50:43 PM »

Hello,
The club at Fleetwood in Lancashire, have Schooner Racing each Wednesday.
All sorts and sizes of schooners take part.
The only requirement to take part in the races is - - - No Sail Controls - - - Rudder only !!!.
The sails have to be set using Bowsies, on the bank, before the race starts.
When I arrived with my Schooner, Bluenose, I had to disconnect the winches and set the sails with lengths of string, to be allowed to take part in the races.
When I got home I made some adjustable sheeting for the sails ready for next time.
Takes quite a bit of learning sailing without winches, but its quite enjoyable to do.
Your boat was designed for Brain Gear, no sail controls were available at that Time, so why change things now ??.
Connect a servo to the Brain Gear quadrant and go sailing!.
Lovely boat, your a lucky chap !!.
John.
Logged
My Projects, Photos and Videos
http://www.john-dowd.
Pages: [1]   Go Up