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Author Topic: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.  (Read 63622 times)

Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #75 on: June 25, 2012, 09:24:11 PM »

Cabin windows and frames. What a nasty fiddly job this can be. As always, I look for an easy solution. Except that there isn’t one. The holes cut into the main structure were supposed to be accurate….but sods law being what it is, they weren’t. But that’s my fault. All squared up now and the windows are fitted. The large windows (about 1.5” x 1”) are framed within plastic channelling…the actual “glazing” is 1mm sheet stuff  and is glued into the plastic channel with “Modellers Glue, very effective stuff. The plastic channel as bought is white, and took perhaps 6 coats of Ronseal coloured varnish to make it look like wood. But this is where my inaccuracies when cutting out the window “holes” became an advantage…I had room to sand down the holes to enable a snug fit for the framed windows. If you’ve never done this before may I suggest that you leave the backing film attached to the glazing. This prevents all sorts of unwanted marks appearing on the windows. ( It took a couple of windows before this simple fact hit home). The backing film peels off quite easily when the glue is set.
    It’s been awhile since I totted up the expenditure. But as a few of the purchases are mainly for experimental reasons the figures are a bit skewed. I last reported that I’d spent £300. This has increased a bit. Another £50 has been spent on such mundane “stuff” as new paint brushes, glue, 1.6mm ply, plastic strip of various sections, ¼” balsa sheet (more on that later). But  anyway, as of June 24th I’m now up to £350. That’s all spread over 3.5 months since I started in March.                                             
Two subjects have been exercising the brain for awhile now.  One is the removable roof for the cabin and the other is (are?) the seat cushions.
    This is where “experimentation” comes in. The “real” boats had the seat covers made from “hide”. That was a bit of a poser until I remembered from years ago that I’d bought and used a product made by “Fablon” that was a self adhesive mock leather.  A seat cushion is generally about 3” thick, so at this scale I’m looking at a ¼” thick base.  But the cushions were “buttoned”. So a flexible “padding” was needed. I tried dense foam….no good. Try Balsa. Magic. But here’s where one of those “needless” expenses comes in. I only needed about a square foot of the Fablon..but had to buy a square metre. Yikes! Pricey.  Same with the Balsa (not a wood I generally have to hand)…another fiver for that. See how the cash evaporates. I’m going to end up with more “left-overs” than I actually used.
The “Fablon” stuff, although supposedly self-adhesive is as adhesive to Balsa as a “post-it” note. Although it does conform to creases around sharp edges. Belt and braces time. Double-sided tape and lay the Fablon over it. That works.  Now for the “Buttons”. I’d already realised that the button pattern is arranged at the cross point of 2 diagonals. Easy (I thought …wrongly). I “sort-of” drew the diagonals in what I thought were ½” squares. Looked ok until I pushed in a few brass pins and saw what a horlicks it all was. Lesson learned. But using the edge of a steel rule pressed down on the Fablon and into the Balsa did give a “quilted” effect. So that bit works.
The photo shows the crap first effort that will be junked. I’ll try harder next time!
    I was going to put up a pic of the window framing….but then, they’re just window frames, and we all have them.
A much more complicated thing is the cabin roof with its double curvature. Easy if permanently fixed…not so if removable.






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Guy Bagley

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #76 on: June 25, 2012, 10:02:30 PM »

watching this build at every stage... ( i have  hull aquired  many years ago  up in the loft  thats not massively different ! )


keep up the good work !
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #77 on: June 26, 2012, 08:23:55 AM »

Thats some rather nice looking upholstery a clever way of doing the buttoned finish
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #78 on: June 26, 2012, 10:07:44 AM »

Thats some rather nice looking upholstery a clever way of doing the buttoned finish
Thanks....but not good enough! But I think the basic idea is worth developing. Bryan.
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #79 on: June 26, 2012, 10:55:32 AM »

Thanks....but not good enough! But I think the basic idea is worth developing. Bryan.

I think the problem is that the vinyl you used is too thick so it doesnt shape properly. Im going to have a play with this technique as I can see some potential for my Huntsman.
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #80 on: June 26, 2012, 04:03:55 PM »

Essex.....no, you've got it a bit wrong here. I wasn't really expecting a pristine/usable result here. It was made only to see if the concept works and what pitfalls to avoid later. The "leatherette" is actually too thin (once the backing sheet has been removed) to measure the thickness accurately. So no problem there. The first point I must address is to make a proper template. The backing paper is helpful here as it's all marked into squares...to large for my purposes, but are a good guide. I'm working towards a 6" square which is 1/2" at this scale. Then my marking out was really just rough and ready. The "long" sides (back and front) are easy enough..slightly mor difficult if you radius the front edge of the underlying balsa as I did, to give a nice curve. The end bits stick well to the double-sided tape, but I'll have to take more care with the trimming and shaping. So next time around I really don't know which to do first. Stick the leatherette to the balsa or draw the pattern (back to front) before cutting.  Both ways have advantages and disadvantages. Suck it and see I suppose.
At the moment I'm tending towards cutting and fitting the leatherette first, then accurately this time, draw the squares and button positions on to a strip of masking tape, placing the masking tape on the cushion and simply prick holes into the balsa. Could work.
But then there's the "button" problem. Or to be more correct, the cutting off the excess that sticks out through the bottom side of the balsa (1/4" thick = 3"). I tried using "clippers" last time, but this just succeeded in proving that every forse has an equal and opposite reaction. Perhaps a dab of superglue on the underside might work. I would have used 1/4" domed tacks if I could find any...but on second thoughts, cutting off the excess is easier if longer ones are used. I think that I'm going to finish up using a cutting disc in the drill. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #81 on: June 26, 2012, 09:24:44 PM »

watching this build at every stage... ( i have  hull aquired  many years ago  up in the loft  thats not massively different ! )


keep up the good work !

Two forms of this boat. Leaving the length to one side. there's the Flat Transom version that is most common nowadays as it's easier to build; and the "spoon" or yacht stern version that brings with it many problems. It seems to be in my nature that I generally plump for the more difficult version. Possibly because there are less of them around....but they are "prettier".
If ("If") you wish to use use your long forgotten hull, then be prepared to spend many weeks at least attempting to get the internal and external woodwork reasonably correct. Good luck. BY.
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #82 on: June 28, 2012, 06:20:40 PM »

Another £35 spent today. I’ve decided to use an MFA “Torpedo 800” motor. That was £26. Slow(ish) speed but lots of torque…or so I’m told. But it could be driving a 3” prop. Even a pack of the brass “nails was £2, as was a pack of modelling “clay” (the bakeable sort) so I can experiment with making these 2 ruddy dolphins.
So now I’m up to £385! No wonder kits cost so much.
    Following on from 2 recent answers/postings, I’ve spent an hour (no more) making the Mark 2 seat. Quite a difference. This one is quite usable as a fitting within the main cabin….the yet to be made cushions for the (outside) cockpit area will have to be better again. Oh,Lord. But I’ve got plenty of “internal” ones to make so I should get better at it!
    Meanwhile, the roofing of the cabin is coming along reasonably OK. But another quandary.
For a model I’m tempted to opt for a fully planked roof. Nicely polished and varnished. But in “real life” the cabin roof was invariably covered with “Corticene”…a sort of Linoleum (Lino) that most of you will be too young to remember. Sort of a dull medium brown stuff. I guess I can always give it a try and if I don’t like it then do something else.
    But today was the day I had to confront a most niggling problem. The unsupported weight/strength of the projecting part of the cabin roof (the bit above where the Dolphins are supposed to fit). A very solid “belt’n’braces” had to be used here for reasons that will become apparent later on.
The 1st pic really only shows the 2 projecting “spurs”…with the addition of 2 small (1/4”) sections of plastic angle for additional support. These are simply fixed with a contact adhesive.  Of the various “slots”, the centre one is to support the middle stringer of the removable part, but the pair to either side will be part of the permanent bracing structure. The main cross-member seen in pic2 is the forward one of 3.
    “Later”…..Writing this in the middle of the worst thunderstorm we’ve had for at least 7 years. One or 2 of my neighbours have mild flooding ….we only have an embryo lake in the garden (no, it isn’t deep enough for what you’re thinking). As usual, the council clean the streets but neglect the drains, so they get choked with leaves and so on. But I reckon we’re better off compared to many.
    Pics 3 & 4 simply show the 2 bracing struts in place and the main “uncut” cross-member in place. That bit is left unvarnished as there’s yet one more part to fit. Actually, that part is the moulding that surrounds the entire structure. Making this sort of moulding is beyond me, so I’m using lengths of ¼” dolls house skirting boards turned upside down. Looks OK . Bending the things is a bit of a problem, but I reckon that if I pin them into place they should take the curvature.
     





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Netleyned

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #83 on: June 28, 2012, 06:54:32 PM »

Ahhh! Corticine  :D :D
The RN must have had square miles of the stuff.
I remember the polishing procedure in our huts
when we were new apprentices.
First out at call the hands grabbed a tin of polish
and a stick and spread dabs of the stuff down the centre
of the hut. First up easiest job!
Next one rubbed it in and then everyone else
There were about thirty of us in each hut, had to
polish the deck with a bumper (a weighted mop type thing)
Only then could you go to the unheated wash rooms and
hope there was some hot water!

Ned
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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #84 on: June 28, 2012, 07:11:49 PM »

And what establishment would that be Ned - I know it wasn't Ganges because we had wooden block floors but the same procedure for polishing them

Geoff
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2012, 07:23:24 PM »

Ah!. So I was wrong yet again. Some of you really are getting along a bit. But aren't we all.
Now that I've mentioned the Corticene stuff...(I'm too young to remember)...what colour was it? I do seem to recall that it was a sort of pale effluent shade. That about right? This entire model is going to finish up in "Forty Shades Of Brown" if i'm not careful.
Thanks for reading, chaps. BY.
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Netleyned

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2012, 07:52:50 PM »

Geoff
Fisgard

Ned
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F4TCT

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2012, 09:47:13 PM »

I melted a Torpedo 800 using a 60mm 3 bladed brass prop on 12volts.

The shafts turned blue with the heat and the insides of the motor are something to be laughed about as they have effectively turned into soot.

Dan
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #88 on: June 28, 2012, 10:49:52 PM »

I melted a Torpedo 800 using a 60mm 3 bladed brass prop on 12volts.

The shafts turned blue with the heat and the insides of the motor are something to be laughed about as they have effectively turned into soot.

Dan
Intriguing. More thoughts on what caused the damage? BY.
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F4TCT

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2012, 11:46:27 PM »

Well, mainly the prop size and me gunning it.

It was the early days of getting my Speedline Trent and the props it comes with don't work, so i replaced it with the scale size threw it in the pond and had a play. (I didn't really have a clue about motor resistance and stuff like that)

It was literally overloading of the motor due to the size of the prop.

In my Waveney Class Lifeboat, I have used Graupner 900 bb turbo motors and these seem to handle the prop size fine. In the tug, i used some Model Slipway ms-900 motors and they drive my 60mm kort props with great ease and with barely getting warm.

From what i have been told about the MFA stuff, its basically not designed for modelling applications. I found it to be a rough thing where as the Graupner is much smoother (something about more poles or something along those lines). For big tugs and things, the guys usually use the old car blower motors or reduction gears.





Dan
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #90 on: July 01, 2012, 03:56:54 PM »

Well, it’s been a bit of a slog but the bracing structure for the cabin roof is now done.
It doesn’t look much, but but all the cutting, grooving and bending to get the thing to be a snug fit within the cabin sides with curvatures in 2 directions…well, I found it difficult.
The 1st pic is, as you can see, the unit “out of position”. The 3 others are of it “as fitted….but removable. The top surface looks a bit rough…purposely so as the bare wood takes a “glue” better than a varnished surface. All the undersides of the structure nice and dark coloured. The next job is to use 1/32” ply cut into 1” wide strips (or “planks” if you prefer) to be laid fore & aft over the removable section…the only way I can get the roof to bend in 2 directions. It doesn’t show too well in the photos but there’s a pronounced “kick” upwards toward the after end. After that I’ll paint the underside (the cabin deckhead) satin white, leaving the darker beams untouched. All same country cottage style. Not that I intend taking the roof off on a regular basis…but it’s all a “just in case” solution.
      Meanwhile, the seat cushions are slowly getting done. Each one is to some extent different to its predecessor as I find “new” (or different) ways of making the things.
But 2 things I’ve learned that may be helpful.  One…don’t let a contact adhesive within sniffing distance of the Fablon…it attacks it faster than a school of Piranhas. Secondly, the ¼” balsa, although the correct thickness for a 3” cushion is too thin for the brass pins ….the protrude through the base and so have to be shortened. I first tried holding the offending pins in the jaws of a pair of miniature pliers and grinding the things to a different length. This proved to be a bit of a clart with pins slipping and flying everywhere. So I decided to just push a pin through a bit of discarded balsa, hold the “head” end against a steel rule and use the proxxon drill with a sanding disc to shorten it. Works fine. Only a few seconds work….but with the amount of pins to be used those few seconds would appear to stretch into a geological time-scale. Looks like being a job to be done in fits’n’starts.     
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mikearace

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #91 on: July 01, 2012, 04:40:26 PM »

Quote
First out at call the hands grabbed a tin of polish
and a stick and spread dabs of the stuff down the centre
of the hut. First up easiest job!

Piece of string round the top of the tin that the polish was in, 10 holes made in the bottom with a nail, then walk up and down the length of the hut banging the tin onto the floor. Left nice symetrically spaced dollops of polish.   Then rags tied to everyones feet and a form of skating up and down the length of the hut rubbing it in.  Best job was the electic buffer though.  One hard push from the hut entrance and it was like being on the waltzer at Spanish City!!
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Netleyned

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #92 on: July 01, 2012, 04:55:35 PM »

Not many electrical polishers in 1959.
Anyway, we are hijacking Bryan's super
build thread.
This is not 'all our yesterdays' but
he did mention Corticine

Ned
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #93 on: July 01, 2012, 05:11:29 PM »

Piece of string round the top of the tin that the polish was in, 10 holes made in the bottom with a nail, then walk up and down the length of the hut banging the tin onto the floor. Left nice symetrically spaced dollops of polish.   Then rags tied to everyones feet and a form of skating up and down the length of the hut rubbing it in.  Best job was the electic buffer though.  One hard push from the hut entrance and it was like being on the waltzer at Spanish City!!
Mike....forgive me, but what on earth are you talking about? Totally lost me I'm afraid!
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #94 on: July 01, 2012, 05:15:23 PM »

Not many electrical polishers in 1959.
Anyway, we are hijacking Bryan's super
build thread.
This is not 'all our yesterdays' but
he did mention Corticine

Ned
Thanks Ned.  I still don't know the correct spelling of "Corticene"....nor the colour of the stuff.
Don't mind people chipping in, but that one from Mike got me wondering more than a little! Bryan.
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Netleyned

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #95 on: July 01, 2012, 05:26:56 PM »

The colour of brown cardboard polished wherever it was laid in the Andrew.
The wax polish was an almost orange colour.
If memory serves me right it was about a 1/4 inch thick with an open weave
hessian like backing. It was not at all flexible and snapped very easily.
Used on a boat cabin roof I would think shellac or varnish of the day would
be needed to weatherproof it.

Ned
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #96 on: July 01, 2012, 06:32:20 PM »

Thanks Ned. Until I read Capt. Stapletons book (and referrred to the Model Shipwright article) I had no idea that this stuff would be used on an open deck (or cabin roof). I'm sure I must have come across it somewhere down the line, but it must just have been used internally. I suppose to us cadets it was just a sort of brown linoleum. It was your remark about having a Hessian sort of backing that got the "remember" cells ticking. Thanks. Bryan.
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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #97 on: July 01, 2012, 09:01:15 PM »

It was used a fair bit in the Platelayers cabins on the railways too Bryan
.... and though I'm not saying much I'm still watching with interest.

Dave
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Bryan Young

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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #98 on: July 03, 2012, 03:28:00 PM »

Into every modellers life a little rain must fall.  But I didn’t expect 2 showers at the same time.
Following the very helpful information about “Corticene” I browsed around and reckoned that an earosol of Humbrol Dark Brown (No 29) looked about right. In fact, according to the lid colour it seemed about perfect. I sure didn’t expect it to dry closer to Olive Green than Brown. It looks ‘orrible. See pic. Another good reason to have made the cabin roof detachable. No complicated masking up to be done when re-spraying with a more suitable colour. £5 wasted.
Now up to £390. But I’d like to remind you that that figure is really a false one….but it’s what it would have been if I hadn’t already had a lot of the materiel already in “stock”.
Shower no.2 was, in a way, more problematical. I’d “planked” the cabin roof with 1/32” ply in 1” strips and araldited them to the internal bearers. With additional stiffening laid underneath to keep the plank edges even…..the same principle I used when planking up the original hull plug. But calamity. During the epoxy curing process the roof framework got a twist in it. Not huge, perhaps a couple of mm, but that meant the roof looked distinctly odd when placed in position. On reflection, it was probably my fault with uneven clamping weights.
While pondering this problem I decided to fit my “upside down” dolls house skirting boards. The athwartships bit needed some pinning (1mm dia. brass). I did want to mitre the 4 corners, but my eyesight made that unfeasible. But as it turns out, the 1/16” roof overhang disguises that quite well. I really only mention that because it was the use of the 1mm brass wire that solved the “twist” problem. Funny how seemingly difficult problems can generally be solved pretty easily. I just bent 4 bits of the brass wire into “L” shapes, and holding each roof corner in position, drilled a 1mm trough both the cabin sides and the roof framework. Slid a pin into the hole..and one of 4 was done. A bit of refinement to the “L” pins and problem solved, with the roof still being removable.
     Although being less than delighted with the roof colour, I decided to fix the plasticard to the roof planking with the old double sided tape. (30 thou plasticard). Went on a treat. Now to hunt down a more suitable colour…..and continue with the seat cushions.







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Re: the start of a new build
« Reply #99 on: July 03, 2012, 05:34:44 PM »

On the subject of "Lino" I was always given to understand that the decking material was similar to the stuff they used to use in school to make printing blocks. (see picture) That was about 1/4 inch thick and had a open weave canvas backing.  It was usually a tan colour.

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