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Author Topic: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.  (Read 63749 times)

Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #250 on: April 15, 2013, 12:51:11 PM »

The barge continues......
So. The “weather” has become (slightly) better. I still have the use of my limbs after so long in virtual hibernation and some of lifes “little problems” have, at the least, stabilised. Work on the Barge has been “sporadic” at best,recently. But an update is now due.
Making and fitting the rudder assembly proved to be easier than I’d imagined. The main cause of concern being just where to put it. I wanted it to be as close as possible to the propeller, but still with enough clearance for the tiller arms not to foul up against the deep cabin casing that projects downwards into the hull so that it touches the inner surface of the hull. Then I found that due to the huge “upsweep” of the back end of the hull I had no (or precious little) space for a servo. That little brain-teaser has been resolved but I’ll leave it for a future post.
Then I realised that I was fed up to the teeth heaving the model around on the long and heavy cradle I’d been using. There was just no way I was going to open this cumbersome thing to the gaze of “others”…..particularly other members of TMBC who, by definition, are not at all reticent with criticisms. That was addressed and solved by using a short section of a cradle I built years ago to house C/S “Recorder”. I think it suits the Barge. I have still to decide on the descriptive name plate (material and wording). But I’ll get to it eventually. And I still fret a little about the wheel handgrips.
     But the main “time consumers” have been the 2 large cowl vents and the voice pipe. The vents have a tale all on their own, so I’ll just post a couple of general views of the barge as an externally complete model and “do” the vents separately.
 
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #251 on: April 15, 2013, 01:36:54 PM »

Part 2.
They (the vents) were originally made using the same plugs as I made and described for the ferry “Northumbrian”. The ferry being built at 1:24 scale and the barge at 1:12, serendipidy had it that at 1:12 they were perfect for the barge. So these were vac-formed. I anticipated being able to have them brass plated…but that was to be not possible according to the various plating companies I approached. I trudged down many blind alleys over many weeks. I even looked into the possibility of using brass powder impregnated into resin (as advertised by a company based in South Shields), but the resulting end-product didn’t look anywhere “solid” enough….and simply adding more and more brass powder simply weakened the resin. In a mild state of despair I went off to confer with the jeweller who made the 2 brass dolphins. He came to the rescue by volunteering to cast them in brass. Although it was streets away from his more usual jobs The 2 part flexible mould he came up with and the resulting wax casting are a work of art in their own right. But there it had to stay for a week as his “proper job” (ie the one that brings in the money) intervened. When I returned one vent had been cast and cooled down and the second one was just about to be removed from the kiln. Then began one of the most interesting “tuition” periods of my life. The “raw” casting can in no way be described as a “pretty thing”. But 5 minutes on 2 sorts of polishing machines produced the articles you see in the attached photo. But he insists on calling them prototypes and wants to have them both returned for melting down and re-casting/polishing etc to get to a standard he’ll be happy with. One of them has a smallish hole in it that gave him an excuse to show me how his laser welding machine works (all £26,000 of it). If only it was available to us mere mortals!
Although each vent is 2.5” tall and 2” across the cowl he was spot on when he guessed each cast unit would weigh in at 40 grammes.
Apart from all sorts of other high-tech stuff he also has a rather large (to my eyes) 3D printer that I may well have reason for him to use on my behalf.
Until I had the vents cast it was pointless doing a stability and balancing test in the water. As I’ve explained, the shape of the hull means that only the centre part of the hull will provide any meaningful buoyancy….so there’s a real possibility that I may have to increase the draught by up to an inch. If, repeat “if” that doesn’t work then Plan B comes into operation.
Thatb basically, is to use the original plastic vents and a resin funnel. Hence the use of the 3D printer. The plastic/resin units would be used when the boat is sailing, and the brass units used when viewed as a static model. Not ideal, I agree, but when needs must etc…….
Let’s just hope that judicious balancing/weight distribution plus the draught increase will make Plan B unnecessary . If that’s the case, then “all” I have to do is repaint the affected bit of the hull and fit the thin red stripe between the blue and the white.
And that’s about it until the afloat testing is done followed by the maiden voyage
 
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nemesis

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #252 on: April 15, 2013, 09:31:38 PM »

Hi Bryan, You weigh the wax pattern and multiply it by 32. This is doubled to allow for sprues and the button. This is the system I used when I was doing gold and silver casting at work.
                       Nemesis
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Capt Podge

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #253 on: April 15, 2013, 09:33:44 PM »

Very impressive Bryan - looking forward to seeing her "in the flesh", so to speak.
 
 
Regards,
 
Ray.
 
 
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #254 on: April 21, 2013, 06:39:24 PM »

A photo...
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #255 on: April 21, 2013, 06:42:40 PM »

Sorry if that was ass-backwards...but the "server" wouldn't accept bothe picture and prose.
A bit ironic that just when you wish to take a photo of something shiny, the sun comes out in all its glory. So back indoors.
This pic is of the 2 now completed brass cowl ventilators. It’ll be obvious which are the brass ones and which are my 2 original vac-formed ABS ones.
I polished the 2 ABS ones until my arm almost dropped off…..but there really isn’t any comparison between brass paint and the real thing.
    I now have only one question to ask on this subject.
What is the most effective “coating” I can use on them to prevent tarnishing.
The coating that’s been applied by the manufacturer of stuff like door handles and house numbers seems to work well (for a few years, at least). Any ideas on what it might be, as I have no desire whatsoever to polish the things every week or so!
     Now for the stability tests and get this thing on the water.
Started this project on March 8th 2012. Many “tears”, frustration, worrying, scratching of head, getting advice and much help from both fellow modellers and an “interested” jeweller. It all “comes together” in the end. BY.
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raflaunches

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #256 on: April 21, 2013, 06:47:43 PM »

All I can say, Bryan, is


FANTASTIC!


Certainly worthy of entry into the masterclass section on the forum! I only wish I could make my models to that standard, maybe one day... :-))
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Jerry C

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #257 on: April 21, 2013, 07:17:17 PM »

I found this Brian. I believe he's probably taking about nitrocellulose lacquer. If anyone knows what is used on old scientific instruments such as my Fortin Standard barometer I'd be very interested. I also think the baking bit is important. The paint I used on my boiler and engine is really hard and tough. I used to paint Amal GP carburettors with the genuine original paint. I baked them in the oven at 140°C for 20 minutes and they went like glass and were totally proof against gasoline.


Posted: Tue Nov 01, 2011 12:32 am    Post subject: Re: Re-lacquering Costs   
glock wrote:
...if anyone has had DIY experience, please do share...

DIY lacquering is not a good idea.
Using spray or paint lacquer for tiny touch-ups can work in some situations (for as long as it lasts), however, lacquering an entire instrument is a completely different story all together.
In order to get to a perfect and long lasting result you at least need to be able to:

-Get rid of the tiniest dents and imperfections of the instrument.
-Buff instrument without over doing and without leaving/causing multiple micro scratches.
-Clean and de-grease instrument.
-Evenly apply a thin layer (or two very thin layers) of lacquer without capturing any air or dust.
-Bake lacquer on instrument with moderate heat.

Every step involved in proper lacquering is A LOT harder than it may seem, also because of safety- and environmental regulations. Most repair shops (and also quite some builders) send their stuff to specialists when it comes to finishing instruments; there's a good reason for this...

Just my opinion, but to do a less than mint DIY job will cause more frustration than pride. It might seriously affect the (re-sale) value of your instrument and when applied too thick, the lacquer can kill an instrument's sound.

MvW.


Jerry.

Stavros

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #258 on: April 21, 2013, 08:53:08 PM »

Brian simply pop down to Halfords and get some car laquer that will protect it from tarnishing for many a year to come
 
 
Dave
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #259 on: April 21, 2013, 10:13:55 PM »

JerryC....Thanks for that. I wish I could get my head around it.....I'll try again tomorrow.
Stavros...I understand what you are getting at. But: I've tried the car lacquer on polished brass and although it looks great for a couple of months it doesn't seem to have the long life that the brass instruments have that Jerry has referred to.
I'd love to have a full size Fortin Barometer but really couldn't afford one.
In my younger days I used to polish my sextant until it gleamed at me....until an "old salt" told me that I was actually taking years off its accurate working life. So I've been a bit wary about that ever since.
I took the "Barge" down to the pond this morning for its first "public" showing. The reactions and comments were most gratifying....even those from the professional "carpers" that every club must have (if only to bring ones ego down a notch or two).
However, the condition the boat is now in will have to remain for awhile due to a domestic issue that will probably take up a lot of my time. So I shall continue this build saga as and when I can for the next few months.
I must thank all of you who have followed my travails over the last 14 months....but I'm not going away(!). Thanks again. Bryan Y..
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pugwash

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #260 on: April 22, 2013, 12:16:29 AM »

She really looks nice Bryan - sorry I couldn't get down to see her this morning.
In regard to protecting the brass you could always do what we did to the front of the 10 inch
signal lamps and that was to get them really well polished up and then give them just a light
coating of vaseline which can be renewed every so often. It was good enough to keep
out the salt spray.
Geoff
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derekwarner

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #261 on: April 22, 2013, 03:08:16 AM »

Bryan.......VHT, Dupli-Color and Rustolium list a "high temperature" clear gloss spray enamel...although I have not used the HT gloss personally
I have used the VHT gloss black  "high temperature" product & yes baked it for one hour @ ~~~~ 93 degrees C to improve hardness & chemical resistance & it works
Here is an image of brass band on my gas tank ... with polish set & after the polish is removed.......clearly the HT gloss black is not degraded by the polish, and similarly the Cabot's standard satin polyurethane is still OK after 2 years of occasional  :o  polishing................Derek

 
 
 
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Derek Warner

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #262 on: April 22, 2013, 09:40:21 AM »

You could follow Gerald Wingroves' lead and have the Brass bits Gold plated.
 
  Regards  Ian.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #263 on: April 22, 2013, 11:37:14 AM »

You could follow Gerald Wingroves' lead and have the Brass bits Gold plated.
 
  Regards  Ian.
Funnily enough I've discussed the notion of gold plating the vents and the funnel. It's always a possibility I suppose. My only fear is that gold plating would be a bit OTT and finish up looking like a football players girlfriend!
But as this barge will in all probability be my final effort at building a complete model I'd rather like it to be one of my better efforts. This decision has been forced upon me by the slow but inexorable advance of the ARMD in my right eye that really makes close-up work more than simply difficult.
However. I think (fingers crossed) that I should be able to manage the proper repair to the so-called "repairs" poor old "Hunan" suffered at the hands of a real cowboy during its 11 year voyage away from its home port. Wish me luck!. Bryan.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #264 on: April 24, 2013, 01:23:58 PM »

Decided to do a wee experiment. Thinking of what Stavros said….went along to Halfords and got an aerosol of Metallic Gold and another of clear lacquer. I’ll use these on the original ABS vents and see how they turn out….particularly the lacquer. Then I’ll see if I’ve got a bit of brass to polish up and try the lacquer on that.
Just been having a bit of a browse to see if I’ve missed anything…..and I have.
The last mention of the cost of the build was a long time ago. Not to worry…got it written down somewhere…….
I left you at £740.
Plus…………80  ( Dolphins and Brass Vents)
                        40  (  Paint and “sundries”). Running total as up to 24th April 2013 is now ££860.
So that’s the thick end of £15 a week over the length of the build. Not too bad really.Still have to buy batteries and a receiver though.So I guess I’m looking at around £900 in total.
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Norseman

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #265 on: April 27, 2013, 08:44:01 PM »

It' been an enjoyable build thread to follow Bryan and having you tot up all your costs has been an education too.

Dave
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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #266 on: April 29, 2013, 01:40:31 PM »


     A few other things struck me. These Steam Picket boats tended to live on board a ship. But the plans show no lifting arrangements for the 15 ton weight.
   
Navigation lights. A bit of a moot point here. I’ve got photos of these barges fitted with and without the screens. But just to add a bit of colour, I’ve fitted them. No lamps are or will be fitted. Reason? What’s the point of fitting unlit oil lamps during daylight?   

Brian
great model. Topmost image shows the lifting points within the hull. They're accessed through scuttles. While not an Admirals barge, the same principle may have been used.







Re: the Navigation lights: there's 4 lugs on the fore end of the cabin by the funnel: the nav lights (on a pole-like affair) fitted into them.






The below image show the Royal barge. The tiller is visible on it and they've used a rope or cable, not a chain. But there's was myriad differences in these craft. Just food for thought for you.





I'd be interested in how they ran the chain/cable under the deck to the tiller in real life? Other than in the above image, I can't find any images of a visible tiller arm or the means of moving it. Of coure, the rudder on the above is fixed to the transom.
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #267 on: May 01, 2013, 04:07:09 PM »

A 3 part reply here…..
Firstly to “Norseman”: thanks for your kind comments.
Secondly to “Pondweed”.
     Although I’m sure you’re correct regarding the lifting arrangements, I still don’t think that all picket boats had the same arrangements. Obviously, the idea of lifting a 15 ton boat using only ring bolts fastened through the deck is a non-starter. But it would be equally feasible to have the ring bolts as an extension of a below deck strong-back system terminating at or near to the keelson. Pays yer money and takes yer choice. Both systems would work.
     Navigation lights…..particularly the sidelights.
Stapletons book has this cutaway drawing….albeit an armed transom stern version….and bigger and heavier than mine. Photos do, indeed, show the (portable) sidelight screens on stalks. But again, I’ve seen photos with the screens fitted right at the after end of the E/R casing and points between the 2. So I don’t think that there was any real consistency as to their positioning. One’s as good as ‘tother really.
    The same goes for the steering arrangements. My plans distinctly show a chain system running outboard of the spurnwater and then to a tiller arm under the stern gratings. The top of this tiller arm is accessible through the gratings so that a local hand tiller can be fitted. (I forgot to fit that little detail!). Your photo is a bit confusing. The sailor is actually holding a boathook while Fisher disembarks…at least I think so. I can’t make out the tiller layout, but it seems to have a crank shape to it.
But again, as you say, it’s transom stern version with the rudder hung on the transom…my version is of the more rare “spoon stern” boat where the rudder is fitted well forward of the actual stern.
     All I can really say isthanks for your interest and taking the time to send your post.
Part 3.
     The various brass castings on this model were done by Andrew Dytham at
www.dythamesqjewellers.co.uk  or Tel. 0191 253 1043.He will make the moulds and cast in brass, silver or gold to requirements. Especially “difficult” bits as he enjoys doing “odd-ball” stuff! BY.
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Pondweed

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #268 on: May 02, 2013, 12:08:48 PM »

Brian
it was really just 'for your information', some 'food for thought'. I saw the query about lifting points and thought the principle in the drawing, or something like it, may 'put some wind in your sail' or just broaden the knowledge base. IIRC, it's from a old warship-building book.

My 3 images are what I know as 'steam picket boats' with the squate transom stern, all the Admirals barges I see have the rounded stern. While they're they're generally thesame type of boats, there's a lot of little differences in them. But the really interesting thing about that 'Royal Barge' he's exiting from is the marquetry? visible. If it was a lesser vesel, I'd have said it was a 'lino' mat. I thought that image was worth showing just for that.

During your research into the type, you don't happen to know if these boats had any alternative war uses? Say like the Dardanelles when the picket boats towed open boats full of troops into the beach. Did they count the Adms barge in with the other steam boats as a work boat?
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Bryan Young

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Re: Bryan's 'Modellers Draught' 45ft Admirals Barge build.
« Reply #269 on: May 03, 2013, 11:19:13 AM »

"Pondweed".......PM sent. BY.
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