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Author Topic: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!  (Read 17643 times)

gwa84the2nd

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2012, 10:47:17 PM »

my brother has one of thoase and it goas exactly like in the vid above me thinks yove got a friday special  :((
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Defairmans

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2012, 03:30:10 PM »

Hi Mike, I have not had it in the water yet because I bought it as a project boat. But I wil try to take it out this weekend and let you know how it goes. I also baught it to learn on...
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Mad_Mike

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2012, 05:08:58 PM »

I got to be honest with you for learning this is a not a good way to go about it. When it comes to modifying boats especially fast ones one of the key skills you need is experience. It requires experimentation based on what you allready know and without prior knowledge your shooting in the dark. I and others can help a bit but its difficult to help much sat at a keyboard and what we suggest might not work and then you've wasted your money. 

If you want to modify this boat then i suggest you keep it to one side for now and start at the basics on a traditional propulsion system on another boat. Sometimes just getting a normal propeller to work on a slowboat is challenging enough let alone going all out surface drive stuff. If your adamant on going this route then ill try to help where i can  :-))
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quiksilva

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2012, 10:37:11 PM »

Hello all 1st post,
bought this as a fun boat for  my  little Herbert after fun boat mark 1 was retired, ripped out the 40 MHz block Rx/esc and fitted a 6 orange 2.4 ghz Rx ,micro marine 10 brushed esc and another 7.2v 650 mah nimh (5) for extended fun in between ice cream breaks at maldon promenade boat pond which is also salt water for those who are not familiar.
Pros:
very rapid especially when it gets on the plane which was much improved time wise with the mtroniks esc compared with the original and a higher speed/smoother throttle response, makes boating pond feel quite small due to pace compared with old boat
very watertight seal between top and hull (neoprene strip or similar) which keep electrics and inside dry, beneficial in salt water
roomy enough for basic upgrades - esc/Rx/bigger battery - but standard motor (speed 400?)  is cheap to replace and seems quick and torquey enough for application

cons
at this price tag cannot think of too much other than limitations for upgrades due to prop direction/diameter 





aerial mast (plus tinsel :}) now purely for sighting purposes after 2.4ghz rx fitted - handy on boat this small




marine viper allegedly water tight out of the box but balloon wraps give Rx and on/off switch some moisture protection

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Defairmans

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #29 on: June 29, 2012, 12:33:24 PM »

I took the boat out yesterday, and once it is up on plane it is quite fast, but getting it there is not so easy.  It takes a long time to get on plane and when turning drops out of plane very easily. You end up wasting battery power at full throttle going slowly.  There is clearly enough power, but maybe the prop shaft needs to be longer? Also it was getting water in the hull from somewhere. I shall have to find out where and plug the leak.

P.S. Mike, thanks for the advice. I will start on another easier project, but would like to tinker a little on this too :-) Thanks for your support
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Mad_Mike

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Re: Red5 7009 RTR The Dash speedboat issues....
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2012, 04:07:18 PM »

if you havent got a blatant crack in the hull then water usually comes up either the prop shaft or threw a badly fitting deck lid. On the larger scale ones we tend use whats called hatch tape. Well suppliers say hatch tape but i bought some a while back for 3 quid and it said cellotape on the inside of the real. Bog standard electrician tape does the job. Its not unusual for surface drives boats to be a bit slow from standing start, with the props not being fully submerged they dont grip to well. They work affectivly when the momentum is up and they get on a plane.

I think that a propshaft conversion wont hurt. Youl will need to change the direction of the motor too. From what i gather and youl need to confirm this is that the motor spindle is 2mm in diameter, the prop shaft is 3mm. I would suggest that when you convert to the 4mm shaft get rid of the standard coupling completely. There are no cheap couplings either which wil do the job. You will need to use a flex cable coupling 2mm to 4mm, even for solid shafts. Universal Couplings with grub screws for instance the huco range:



they are good couplings but are not designed for high prop shaft rpms which you will be using and they shatter beyond 10,000 rpm (if i remember rightly)

Solid type couplings:



These are good and strong at high rpms but require the propshaft and motor spindle to be aligned perfectly, which is easier said than done.

both of these couplings have grub screws like most to but not all couplings are made well. A problem with these types of couplings is that when you tighten up the grub screw and the internal bore of the coupling is a bit slack the grub screw tightens the prop shaft against one side of inner wall, thus making the coupling tight on the shaft but the coupling slightly off centre. At low rpm applications this is not really a problem but on a 30k rpm surface drive it screams due to the excessive vibrations and ruins your bearings. it is possible to get around this with having couplings with more than one grubscrew in either end so that pressure of each screw on the propshaft counteracts each other. The best type of coupling for surface drive applications is this type:



it is essentially like a drill chuck. It has grub screws at one end and a chuck at the other you tighten with a pair of small spanners. The bore on the grube scew side is usually very tight so it is not normally an issue with eccentricity. You can use this one, BUT you will have to confirm the diameter of motor spindle:

https://astecmodels.co.uk/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=1_43&products_id=668&osCsid=9bf2b57ed103bde0696f649f7f7c6523

the motor spindle usually connects to the large 4mm grubsrew side and the propshaft to the narrower 2mm chuck side. But in your case because your motor spindle will be the smaller counterpart compared to the propshaft you need to use the coupling in reverse so that the smaller chuck side fits on to the motor spindle  %%

when changing the coupling the fan will be gone and so you will have to add a water cooling coil to the motor. you will need to measure the diameter of the motor first then look about to find the coil that fits. It would help to also add heat sink paste between the motor and the coil to aid thermal transfer. You will need to extend the shaft like was explained earlier in the thread. you will also need to move the rudder over and fit the water pickup for the cooling. Its probably best to get a new rudder with the water pick built in.I think this might be the right size, it seems right:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RC-Ship-55mm-Silver-Aluminium-Cooling-Boat-Rudder-HR275-/270757337152?pt=UK_ToysGames_RadioControlled_JN&hash=item3f0a651840

to get your shaft go to this bloke:

http://www.modelboatbits.com/

you need to email him and you and sort out an order. You want a 4mm propshaft, plain on one end with m4 on the other end. Tell him both the length of the propshaft tube required and the length of the inner shaft required too. Id also advise to get a central 3rd bearing too.

any question dont hesitate to ask :-))
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Martin [Admin]

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7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #31 on: June 15, 2013, 07:14:56 AM »


These look like fun!   :-)

 ..... we could start a new race series with these! 


http://tinyurl.com/mpl2uaz

http://youtu.be/kwTxZEInTI8

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boatmadman

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2013, 06:43:01 PM »

Be warned!


We had the same idea at our club, 6 of us bought one only to find the (supposedly) 2.4ghz radio systems interfered with each other to such an extent that we couldnt run more than two at a time.


We gave up!


Anyone want to buy one? {-)
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2013, 07:37:22 PM »


Apart from the crap radio, how did they go?

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essex2visuvesi

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #34 on: June 15, 2013, 07:44:00 PM »

I can see it now....
The innaugral MBM Wickstead challenge series
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RTF Speedboat!
« Reply #35 on: July 03, 2013, 03:45:55 PM »


Topics Merged.

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #36 on: July 03, 2013, 04:07:03 PM »


Well I have bought one and mine seems to run fine, must have a lucky one I guess.

First thoughts
1.  Quite impressive for the money, 35.00 GBP (fleabay)
2.  Hatch seal soon came apart at the front, too much 'sticky' is my guess.
3.  'Safety cut off' very effective, wouldn't work with wetted fingers.
4.  Thought boat was faulty, so put in bathroom sink to test. Emptied basin in 3 secs!
5.  30 minutes clearing up all the splashed water form above test.
6.  Whole boats seems screwed together, including top deck. Excellent!
7.  Radio says "27Mhz" but think it covers the whole 27Mhz spectrum.... and probably BBC local radio!
8.  Added ' floatation 'to top hatch which will inevitably come off in middle of lake.
9.  Will probably also upgrade to 2.4Gig radio, ESC and probably brushless.

On the water.
a.  Runs very well on first run but has heavy bias to Port.
b.  Rudder trim full Starboard but still pull to Port.
c.  'Vee' kink put in rudder link to set rudder to neutral.
d. Not had another run yet, hopefully this weekend.  :-))

 will add photos later......

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #37 on: July 03, 2013, 10:12:30 PM »


 Photos...

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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #38 on: July 03, 2013, 10:15:39 PM »


 Photos...
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derekwarner

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #39 on: July 04, 2013, 01:19:42 AM »

What sits in the compartment/case holder between the rudder servo & the bridge AFT of the motor?................I see a RED & BLACK wire underneath but no terminal lugs in the case itself for batteries.......
The mounting of all of the components appears to be well designed & very neat............Derek
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 - DASH II Double Horse RC Speedboat!
« Reply #40 on: July 04, 2013, 01:22:30 PM »


Hi Derek,
That's just the battery holder in the middle.
The black and red wires are the 'water' / safety sensors, one to the shaft and one to a pin head near the transom.

10. Will try and find some cheap 7.4v Li-po batteries
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pompebled

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #41 on: July 04, 2013, 08:27:24 PM »

Hi Martin,

It's no surprise the boat is biased to port, due to the propwalk of the clockwise turning prop.
As it's a small boat with surface piercing drive, propwalk is a bigger issue than with a larger boat.

The driveline should have built in offset to the left to counteract this phenomenon.
I'm sure it would be doable to alter this, but it's an awful lot of work.

Regards, Jan.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #42 on: July 04, 2013, 09:42:57 PM »


Probably, but the rudder was offset by about 8o
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pompebled

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #43 on: July 04, 2013, 09:52:07 PM »

Hi Martin,

Than it's a good thing the boat isn't more powerful; when the boat is capable of going faster (by installing a brushless motor) the counter steering to track straight would make the rudderblade act as a lever, lifting the left rear and pushing down the right front.

Keep pushing the throttle and you'll see the boat stumble over it's own awkward running attitude (violently...).
I've tried it with several 50 cm hulls and none of them would run fast without horrendous crashes.
Only offsetting the drivetrain, so the rudder could stay straight, remedies that.

Regards, Jan.
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Martin [Admin]

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #44 on: July 04, 2013, 10:13:39 PM »

 
Hope so!   {-)
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Stavros

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #45 on: July 04, 2013, 10:19:30 PM »

Martin just stick a 900 motor in it you know it makes SENSE  O0 {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)


Dave
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victor

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #46 on: September 09, 2013, 12:25:12 PM »

I have been reading this thread with interest as I bought 2 FT 007s, one for the grandson and one for me, we have had great fun. Based on a few bits I found in my spares box, mainly an ex helli ballraced exposed brushes 370 motor and a 29mm hydro prop I have decided to have a play with mine.


I am curios about the 10 - 13 % rule, is this 10 - 13% of the overall length, prow to transom, or just the waterline length ?
Also, there is hardly any room to offset the drive to counteract propwalk, if required is it OK to keep the shaft in the ventre of the vee and just alter the drive angle to suite ?


Thanks, V.
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pompebled

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #47 on: September 09, 2013, 04:45:23 PM »

Hi Victor,

If the new motor revs significantly higher than the stock motor, you'll suffer more propwalk and have to steer to keep tracking straight, I've explained what the consequence of that will be.

The FT 007 has a driveline, that runs clockwise, seen from the rear, which is opposite to what's custom in the boating world, so chances are that your heli motor and 29 mm hydro prop will rotate counterclockwise (again seen from the rear).
The propwalk will make your boat veer off to the right, counteracting it means offsetting the drive train (motor and propshaft) to the right making the boat unsuitable to run the stock motor and prop again.

The 10 - 13 % is the length of the hull, from the tip to the transom (not including any overhang at the transom if there is any).
The smaller the boat the shorter this distance can be without compromising the running attitude (too much).

If you power the hull beyond the stock setup, you can't cheat too much without running in to trouble...

Behind the transom of the boat a 'dent' forms in the water, as the boat picks up speed; at a certain speed this dent will sit in the spot where the prop is, this causes the prop to lose grip, the revs go up and the speed goes down.
The dent disappears and the prop has grip again and the game starts all over.

On an existing setup you can overcome this by using a larger diameter prop(with a lower pitch if available), but the motor (and ESC, battery and wiring) has to be able to cope with the higher ampdraw without overheating.

The angle of a surface piercing drive has to be as shallow as possible; when the boat sits even keel on a flat surface, the rear bearing has to sit 1-2 mm (more if the hull is larger) above this surface.
Too steep and the prop will be too submerged, drawing way too much amps and pushing the bow down, too high and the prop will loose grip as soon as the boat gets on the plane, as the prop gets lifted out of the water.

A picture to show the angle:



Getting the angle right, along with the distance between the prop and the transom, often requires a longer shaft, as simply moving the motor towards the rear compromises the angle.

Regards, Jan.
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victor

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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #48 on: September 09, 2013, 05:45:05 PM »

Thanks for the info Jan, I realised the situation with the drive length and direction of rotation, as a result I am planning to fabricate a new wire drive to the correct length. I shall also build in some adjustment to allow me to alter the thrust angle to counteract the prop walk. I also want to alter the speed control by switching 2 lipo cells between series and parallel as I don't like ESCs with low voltage brushed motors, OK on scale boats but not if you want to go as fast as possible.
 
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Re: 7009 / DASH II Double Horse RC Speed boat!
« Reply #49 on: September 09, 2013, 07:53:32 PM »

Hi Victor,

An ESC for a brushed motor is preferable over switching on and off and switching between cells.

This is 'technology' from the '60, damaging to both motor and batteries due to the spikes during the switching.
A cheap forward only ESC (from HK) will do a much better job:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__33945__Turnigy_30A_BRUSHED_ESC_EU_warehouse_.html?strSearch=brushed

Regards, Jan.
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