Model Boat Mayhem

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: aircraft fuel  (Read 2937 times)

regiment

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,718
  • Location: perranporth cornwall
aircraft fuel
« on: April 18, 2012, 07:07:05 PM »

talking to a motorist to day got on to the price of petrol and he said  that air lines do not pay vat on fuel  is that right so  why should he  thanks 
Logged

triumphjon

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 790
  • Location: portsmouth , hampshire
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2012, 08:23:29 PM »

its also not much good in the average motor car ,
Logged

dodgy geezer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,920
  • Location: London
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2012, 08:35:18 PM »

talking to a motorist to day got on to the price of petrol and he said  that air lines do not pay vat on fuel  is that right so  why should he  thanks 

I believe that an agreement to make airline fuel duty free was reached, because otherwise fuel could be greatly different prices in different airports, and this would have a huge impact on airlines pricing structures. You would end up with planes skimping on fuel in one place, and overfilling in another - variable ticket prices depending on fuel duties on the day of your flight, and countries running hidden subsidies to their airlines by playing around with the fuel tax. Airlines have a trade body - IATA - who negotiate these sort of things...
Logged

Howard Q

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2012, 09:51:07 PM »

VAT is paid on aviation gasoline i.e. avgas, this is used in light aircraft but as your earlier reply it would be of no use in a car engine, the octane rating for regular unleaded is 97, the octane rating for standard avgas is 100, this will burn a little bit too hot for a standard engine, plus the lead content is too high for road use.
Up until recently racing motorcycles used a mixture of avgas and ordinary unleaded petrol, (remember that) the high lead content in the avgas prevented the engine locking up - seizing. this I know as we supplied Honda Racing with about 20 fortyfive gallon drums for the TT racing on the Isle of Man, they along with all others use regular fuel for todays racing.
Howard.
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2012, 09:51:51 PM »

Well it depends what fuel we're talking about here...

Being a pilot i can offer some thoughts. The general piston engine runs on Avgas 100LL which is on average 2 a litre and the likes of the piper warrior burns 35 litres an hour! Smaller homebuilt aircraft or those with rotax engines can run on 100LL, 91L (about 1.70p/l) or normal mo gas - current prices. the rotax engines have massively lower fuel burn.

Jet A1 is something like 70-90p a litre and works in a diesel car! There is tax on it, just not a great deal.

Dan
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2012, 10:02:13 PM »

I will add further that fuel is literally killing the general aviation industry. Something has to be done both at the refinery, the government, and ultimately the aircraft engine manufacturer - mainly the latter.

The issue is Piper tried new engines and they didnt work properly, and people have a habbit of filing law suits against such failures. They tried a diesel, it used to have issues with the gearbox and seize the engine, shedding the prop and resulting in landing on the nearest field.

Certainly the way forward now are the aircraft with rotax engines, they are reliable and cheap to run, however generally 90% of the aircraft with these in are PFA which means it cant be used for night flying or IFR flight - no use to me.

Modern things like what I will be doing my multi engine IR in - the tecnam 2006t use rotax and burn just less than the warrior but with more performance.

The UL 91 stuff has only been certified upto a certain engine size on the cherokee for example which is 140bhp, so useless for all flying schools which operate the warrior.
Logged

Howard Q

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2012, 10:19:30 PM »

I worked in the aviation refuelling industry for nearly 30 years and can agree with the previous reply, prices just kept going up and up, I had great sympathy with the local one man flying schools, they had great difficulty in keeping their prices at a reasonable level, do you remember the Diamond, both single and twin, they had modified Mercedes Benz engines we refered to them as diesels, this is because although a light aircraft they ran on Jet A1, something we had to be extremely carefull when refuelling, they unfortunately did not make the distance and fell by the wayside.
Howard.
Logged

Jonty

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 824
  • Location: Hoselaw - facing The Cheviot (Scottish Borders)
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2012, 10:22:57 PM »

 Interesting. Especially when you think that you could buy Esso Golden at the pumps, and that was 101.5 octane. There was probably loads of lead in it, but with the hotspots cleaned off the combustion chambers it would cope with an 11:1 comp ratio. And it cost five bob a gallon!

  Wasn't Avgas at one time 130 octane? I know Formiula One cars ran on it for a few years after alcohol fuels were banned - 1857-1960?
Logged
I eat my peas with honey,
I've done it all my life;
It makes the peas taste funny,
But it keeps 'em on the knife.

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2012, 10:25:15 PM »

The current DA-42's with the diesels are seemingly unreliable at times. The school where i learnt had many and half were in the workshop, one even shed a prop. Otherwise i'd love to have a go of one!

Forgive my ignorance but why does it cost more to produce a bit of 4 star with blue dye in it with 100% octane?

Dan
Logged

Howard Q

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2012, 10:30:03 PM »

100LL is blue, 130LL if my memory is right was green, we hadn't seen it at our storage for years, I have been retired for three and a half years, we did have a couple of aircraft that would fly on either Mogas (motorcar fuel) or 100LL.
Howard
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2012, 10:36:19 PM »

The 130 thing was i think, in relation to the performance at rich mixture. Because it used to be known as 100/130 (green) or there was a 115/145 also. The LL bit means Low Lead and was blue.

Ive certainly never seen anything but the blue 100LL or the red 91L.

I suspect with some additive, the warrior engines and the like could be converted to run on mo gas. The biggest issue will be convincing the CAA or EASA as its now known.

Dan
Logged

dodgy geezer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,920
  • Location: London
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2012, 10:54:36 PM »

Well it depends what fuel we're talking about here...
....
Jet A1 is something like 70-90p a litre and works in a diesel car! There is tax on it, just not a great deal.


If we are talking about airlines we are talking about AVTUR, and probably for international use? AFAIK, there is no excise duty on AVTUR, but there would be VAT on it if it were being used for a flight inside the UK. I'm not sure what the rules for international use are - I seem to recall that there is less or no tax?

This document seems to be the most recent tax ruling (Jan 2010) - http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE_CL_000186  Sections 2.2 to 2.4 refer...
Logged

CF-FZG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Oxfordshire
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2012, 10:56:10 PM »

he biggest issue will be convincing the CAA or EASA as its now known.

You're a pilot, and don't know that the CAA and EASA are two different organisations %)
Logged
Mark.

Tonka Toys - Big boys toys :)

Howard Q

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 148
  • Location: Isle of Man
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2012, 11:08:01 PM »

This message is just to test if my replies are getting through, my last two failed
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2012, 08:57:27 AM »

You're a pilot, and don't know that the CAA and EASA are two different organisations %)

Yep however they are seemingly going to overtake licensing and medical requirements and destroy the general aviation industry with silly rules.

Only time will tell.
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2012, 09:50:06 AM »

Theres also a petition knocking about in regard to the air ambulances getting their fuel minus any VAT and since they use Jet A1, there must be tax on it.
Logged

dodgy geezer

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,920
  • Location: London
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2012, 10:46:19 AM »

Theres also a petition knocking about in regard to the air ambulances getting their fuel minus any VAT and since they use Jet A1, there must be tax on it.

Um...I've just provided you (4 responses above) with the current HMRC rules which show that there is no excise duty for any AVTUR fuel, but there is VAT if the journey is purely an internal one in the UK. For international use (which is what I took 'airline' use to mean, there is no VAT.

Which, I think, is the answer to the original question...
Logged

Welsh_Druid

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 394
  • Location: Lleyn Peninsular North Wales
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2012, 10:50:40 AM »

Yep however they are seemingly going to overtake licensing and medical requirements and destroy the general aviation industry with silly rules.

Only time will tell.

Its not the CAA - in many ways their hands are tied by the EASA ( European Air Safety Authority)  However for the GA sector there IS sanity breaking through. See


http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=600%3Aaopa-reports-easa-changes-are-in-the-air&catid=1%3Alatest-news
Logged

F4TCT

  • I am not completely useless.......I can always serve as a BAD example
  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
  • Location: Whitby, North Yorkshire, UK
    • My Boat Builds
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2012, 11:11:12 AM »

Well, we can only wait and see when things bed in.

I mean they dont even know what they are doing with the IMC rating. Its stupid and unfair. They will issue the rating until the end of June however ever that date, it really depends what they want to do.

They were talking of removing the NPPL or atleast restricting what aircraft you can fly on an NPPL. Again thats unfair and a joke.

Only time will tell..

Dan
Logged

scoop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 304
  • Location: Northamptonshire
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2012, 11:24:20 AM »

Getting back to the Model Boat forum  :} Along the lines of fuel personally I use Super Un-Leaded with a 16:1 2 stroke oil mix (Comma red - semi synthetic), VAT and 'other taxes'  are not an issue as my 27cc IC motor only drinks 20 litres of fuel in a race season ! So it's only an extra couple of quid over the year but worth it with all the fun we have, the use of AVGAS as a fuel additive is barred in our style of racing  :-)).....go to www.bmprs.co.uk to see what we get up to

Regards
Scoop
Logged
BMPRS Secretary/Pro www.bmprs.co.uk
PS. There ain't no going back

essex2visuvesi

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6,134
  • Location: Finland, England, Finland!
Re: aircraft fuel
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2012, 11:25:07 AM »

Its not the CAA - in many ways their hands are tied by the EASA ( European Air Safety Authority)  However for the GA sector there IS sanity breaking through. See


http://www.aopa.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=600%3Aaopa-reports-easa-changes-are-in-the-air&catid=1%3Alatest-news


Headed by the French  :o
The fills me with confidence!  :}
Logged
One By One The Penguins Steal My Sanity
Proud member of the OAM  (Order of the Armchair Modeller)
Junior member of the OGG  (Order of the Grumpy Git)
Pages: [1]   Go Up