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Author Topic: Bob's H.M.S. Polyphemus  (Read 208378 times)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #150 on: October 28, 2012, 07:36:07 pm »

Hi Derek,

As far as I can tell the original had counter rotating props, but photos are limited.
I have L.H. and R.H. props, turning inwards towards the hull at the top, which seems to give the best maneuverability.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #151 on: October 28, 2012, 11:37:10 pm »

You can see from the picture below that the propellers turned out board.
LB
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #152 on: October 29, 2012, 09:53:37 am »

LB:  I think I can see what you and Derek mean.  I may leave the props top-inwards until commissioning as this seems to work better on a model.  Easy enough to swap props and motor leads to try top-outwards in the water.
 
I have been advised that the twin bow rudders were not very effective, but I want to try it out for myself.  Maybe getting them the right dstance apart may help.  Hence the bow mods.  A lot of R&D. 
Neoprene gasket strip arrived.  I am now off to get some car body filler
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Bow remodelling.
« Reply #153 on: October 30, 2012, 09:38:45 pm »

 
Bow remodelling

Good stuff P38 body filler, although I have not used such filler for decades.  For car dents a very flexible steel rule helps to shape the filler more or less to the dent.  In this case, creating a more complex convex shape, it goes on with as much finesse as royal-icing a Christmas cake.   Hours of filing.  More filler.  More filing.  Only after sanding the final fine modelling putty do the contours transform into smooth curves.  Patience  :-))



I have started sculpting in the bow torpedo tube cap.  With the bow underside filled out I can now start on the twin bow rudders.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Bow rudders
« Reply #154 on: November 02, 2012, 04:11:42 pm »


Bow rudders

As stated before, this will be the whole R&D story.  I am into Bagpuss-Hat mode again over the bow rudders, and can see why others may have found they were not very effective.  I've had to remodel the bow to set them a scale distance apart, which means that space is extremely limited to actuate them in.  ie:  on 20mm centres in a hull section barely 40mm wide.  Too narrow for conventional tiller arms.

I used to be into slot racing cars, so due to the almost total lack of dimensional info for model pinion gears online I opted for slot-car sidewinder gears as I am familiar with these.  That defines my rudder spindle size.  The gears have grub screws, essential here.
   plan view, bow at top

Now I have to wait until the gear sets arrive before making up the rudders set.  3 mm brass spindles in brass tubes. Rudder blades will have to be in brass plate with some silver soldering involved.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

derekwarner

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #155 on: November 02, 2012, 10:29:12 pm »

Good morning.....most images in this thread appear as an ....... X  >>:-( ......Derek
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Derek Warner

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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #156 on: November 02, 2012, 10:43:39 pm »

Good day Derek.  That's sad you cannot see the photos.  I have been using direct IMG links to Photobucket for almost two years here and have not heard of a problem before. 
Access to the albums is set to Public, viewable by all.
Maybe something in the new site set up that maybe our Moderators could advise on.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

derekwarner

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #157 on: November 02, 2012, 10:55:27 pm »

Morning Bob....it is with all threads ...not just H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881)...
Remember I viewed the "handing" of the propellors a few days ago.....but those images are now just X

I am sure it will be resolved........Derek
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Derek Warner

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Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #158 on: November 02, 2012, 11:01:28 pm »

Morning to you Derek.  I can see your screen shot OK, if that helps.  Maybe it is a site settings issue.
PS:  I absolutely love the name of your location, it sounds wonderful.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #159 on: November 03, 2012, 09:26:19 am »

I can still see all your photos bob...

Doing a lovely job, and I like the bow rudder set up, so simple.
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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #160 on: November 03, 2012, 11:03:50 am »


Hi Derek

Can you go back through the site and see if any other member's pictures are not showing.


ken



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derekwarner

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #161 on: November 03, 2012, 11:21:44 am »

Evening Ken.......off thread but...
It is clearly site related & not member related
Earlier this morning approx 50% of images in different threads were just a red X
This evening I find all images in all threads in Model Mayhem are viewable....
Derek
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Derek Warner

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dreadnought72

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Bow rudders
« Reply #162 on: November 03, 2012, 12:08:00 pm »

Too narrow for conventional tiller arms.

Bowden cable, curving back into more accessible space?

Andy
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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #163 on: November 03, 2012, 12:41:24 pm »

Andy:  I had considered a cable pulley arrangement, even a chain with sprockets.  With around 16 dia slippage would be likely on pulleys.  At least with gears it is direct drive and easy to mount
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derekwarner

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #164 on: November 03, 2012, 01:23:26 pm »

 %)  Bob......on review....I think your 3 gear concept for the FWD rudders will provide a robust [sized constraint construction] and if securely sealed [o-rings] on the vertical shafts will provide a problem fee assembly
Would you be considering some reverse [Y lead] type functioning between the FWD & STERN rudders? ....Derek
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Derek Warner

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Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #165 on: November 03, 2012, 04:50:32 pm »

 O0  Derek . . .  I had realised that the servo throw was reversed, but not quite figured whether to reverse it electrically (ie on Tx), put in an extra linkage arm, or as you suggested maybe working them in combination with the main stern rudder.  Interesting !  I had considered a 4th gear.  Can you get reversing 'Y' leads?
 
Spot on with the importance of sealing.  The brass tubes are a close fit with the inners, will be 80 mm long extending up almost to the 'deepest draft' waterline.
At present I have 3mm ID 'O' rings for top and bottom, so hopefully with prop shaft grease they should stay dry.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Bow rudders R&D
« Reply #166 on: November 08, 2012, 11:29:11 am »


Bow rudders R&D

Gears arrived.  I have been trying out various combinations of options to allow effective rudder arm swing without fouling other parts and whilst keeping top of rudder tubes above waterline. 
Also need to keep servo actuation below underdeck and nutserts   ( See diagram on Reply #155 )

More bits are on order.  This idea will allow drive gears to be as close as possible to underdeck, with allen key access to all grub screws, by mounting servo lower in the bow using a toothed belt drive about 50 mm below the central driver gear cog. 



OK, maybe getting a bit complicated, but I have to be able to service all parts with the underdeck epoxied into the hull. 
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #167 on: November 09, 2012, 09:16:50 pm »

Bow rudders R&D

Feeling a bit miffed with a UK electronics supplier (who shall be nameless).  I had purchased the item pictured in my last post, and was surprised the delivery ETA was longer than expected.  Turned out it was coming by UPS from their shop in Germany.  It arrived today, but only the plastic belt.  Called the UK supplier.  They said I had to order the belt wheels separately despite the photo on their web site, and she was not too sure which one was which.

You have to resourceful in R&D.  I went onto the German site of the same name and found a PDF data sheet, in German of course.  Good old Google translate!  I managed to figure out what the column headings meant.  Most of the smaller gear wheels had no fixing screws.  This could be a challenging fit in the space having to use larger gears.

I tried to order the bits straight from Germany, made sense and should be quicker.  Wrong.  When it cam to entering my address I found that amongst the 150 odd countries to pick from there was no UK, United Kingdom, Britain, or England etc. I was almost tempted to pick Pitcairn Island.

Writing down the full part numbers I went back to the UK site, which failed to recognise my e-address and password as an existing customer, then tried to throw me out as ‘some details’ appeared to match an existing customer.

Finally I placed the order for the ‘missing’ toothed gear wheels.  5 to 7 days delivery.  Even then I will not know if it will do the job until I try to fit it all together.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #168 on: November 09, 2012, 10:38:11 pm »

yehh we won the war but germany is winning the peace  <:(
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Subculture

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #169 on: November 10, 2012, 11:31:03 am »

I find HPC gears are excellent for belts, gears, chains etc. UK supplier, you'll get your parts within a day or two, no mucking about. All top quality too.

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #170 on: November 10, 2012, 12:44:28 pm »

Subculture:  Now that looks a good site, all the dimension, data in English, and in Chesterfield.  A little more expensive but would have saved loads of hassle.  They do smaller wheels with grubscrews, so if the other lot on order does not fit the tight space I will try them:
 
PS:  Thanks for the tips on cutting slots in hulls.  Having now got some diamond burr bits and diamond burr needle files these are quite controllable.  Five per side, at bottom of ballast chambers, 4 x 25 mm.  Going well !  Thanks.
 
Whilst waiting for Germany I am preparing the internal frame with neccessary air/water tube inlets plus electrical ducts.  The darned twin rudders drive has been holding things up.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), Ballast tank slots
« Reply #171 on: November 10, 2012, 08:09:47 pm »


Ballast tank slots

Whilst waiting for another batch of bits from Germany I am working on the hull.  Five slots each side at the bottom of the ballast tanks and parallel with the inner bulkheads. 
4 x 25 mm each.  Marked out on inside, very small pilot holes drilled through end radii, then opened up from the outside using diamond burr bits and dressed with files.



This should allow reasonably quick water filling when air valves are opened at top of tanks.
 
Next to make up is a set of oversize sponge blocks with handles to prevent spray ingress after the clear Lexan frame assembly and underdeck are epoxied in and sealed. 
Once the hull is sprayed the blocks can be withdrawn from the outside.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #172 on: November 16, 2012, 12:33:19 am »

Some progress

Whilst still waiting for parts from Germany I have made some headway.  The single stern rudder mounting is fitted, in a very narrow hull section.  A bit fiddly to get close in as it is to replicate a hinged rather than centre swivelling action. 
 
Question:  Why do rudder actuator arm manufacturers always put the grub screw, or cheese head screw, at an angle impossible to tighten in a narrow hull end ?  It should be 45 degrees from the arm, not opposite it.  As usual arm redesign is required.

Two partial baffles per ballast chamber built in, with a small gap to the frame and holes to allow flow without high-mass sloshing. 
Also added at this stage are brass tube stubs in the frame for ballast tank air and water pipes.

When the toothed belt gears arrive I can get back to the twin bow rudders.
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

Bob K

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #173 on: November 16, 2012, 03:53:24 pm »

Stern Rudder

Started off with a standard riveted brass rudder and trimmed excess brass from the outline. Extended centre spindle in ABS tube and fitted U channel to hull for the spindle to run inside to replicate a hinged rudder.  A bit of detail added to represent gudgeons and pintles whilst ensuring maximum rotation in the U channel.  ABS sheet used to sandwich the brass plate to size and filed to shape.



Toothed belt gears arrived today !   Now onto the bow rudders !
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HMS Skirmisher (1905), HMS Amazon (1906), HMS K9 (1915), Type 212A (2002), HMS Polyphemus (1881), Descartes (1897), Iggle Piggle boat (CBBC), HMS Royal Marine (1943), HMS Marshall Soult, HMS Agincourt (1912)

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Re: H.M.S. Polyphemus (1881), not quite a submarine
« Reply #174 on: November 16, 2012, 05:49:00 pm »

On the Kehrer modeelbau site, they use blets to hook up the rear vanes and rudders on their neat little 1/100th Alfa kit. ALfa's are a teardrop shaped boat, so space is extremely tight at the stern.

Here are some pictures of the set-up, may give you a few ideas.




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