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Author Topic: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal  (Read 12047 times)

glennb2006

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Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« on: April 13, 2007, 01:37:40 AM »

There has recently been some discussion here relating to an entry level limited cost model boat racing series.

I kind of kicked this off on someone else's topic, and I would like to thank all who have responded to my comments.

I think Danny Bell has said all that need's to be said relating to a proposal and rules can be picked easily from his comments - I have copied and pasted it here for information:

"IF another "cheap to start and race" class is to be attempted, a number of things need to be considered.  It will take a definite committment on many parts.

The organisation
1. The class must be recognised by a National Body in order that racers have the same facilities and opportunities as the existing classes into which they may well move.  "Club" rules and racing does not give the same 'feel' as open competitions with members from many clubs competing individually.  It does not matter which 'National body' incorporates the new class but based on my previous experience, it would be more difficult to have it accepted in the MPBA.  This would also allow progression to true National Championships.
2. Races MUST be held as part of the same competitions as the other classes running under the National body.  The OMRA 'Z' class is an excellent example of what should NOT be done.  'Z' class races are held on different dates and at different venues and for a different championship than the original OMRA classes.  It has resulted in very few racers taking part in both 'sets' of races, further, as few 'Z' racers want to travel a long way just to race one class of boat, the way was clear to introduce another 'Z' class which meant that racers could now race two classes on the same day, thus the 'Z modified' class was born.
This has effectively split OMRA right down the middle, with few racers crossing from 'Z' to 'AA-D' classes. The very reason it was introduced in the first place.

The boat
3. A RTR or ARTR boat would be preferred by many new racers. It MUST be readily available in whatever numbers may be required and NOT rely on 'special offers' or 'here today, gone tomorrow' suppliers.  If we could get a UK manufacturer to put together a ready built, or as a minimum a COMPLETE kit, plus comprehensive, easy to understand instructions to an agreed specification and price, I'm sure it would be worth their time and effort.  A couple of very popular classes have been introduced in the USA based on a single RTR kit.  I would prefer it to remain a UK based enterprise for ease of communication, spare parts availability, and just because it's UK!
4. The specification would need much thought as it needs to be simple, possibly using a pull-start engine, submerged drive, untuned engines, reasonable price, and designed to go at a realistic speed which would not, obviously, be as fast as any of the 'standard' classes - but this would not matter as the boats would be competing evenly with EXACTLY the same type of boat.
5. NO modifications which deviate from the original rules should be allowed.  Any rule change proposed should mean the abandonment of the class.  Racers who have the ability and money to make this class of boat faster should move on to the existing 'developmental' classes, leaving this class for racers who want the boats and competitions AS THEY ARE.

The racers
6. It is the responsibily of everyone who enjoys model boating, in whatever form, to try to encourage newcomers into the hobby.  With new blood we will grow, to the benefit of all.  It is essential that existing boaters 'join in' to promote the new class, by buying and racing them.  Then as others see the fun to be had, they will want to join in. 
7. It is no use having a class where only a couple of boats are bought/made. Organisers of events do not want valuable water time taken up by a couple of 'new class' racers who use all the event facilities (rescue, lapcounting, PA, OOD) for two or three boats.  WE need to get the boats out there racing first.  Then they will appear in articles in the Modelling press and begin to attract newcomers.  It would also be worthwhile to carry out a 'photo' build/set-up which could be published to help newcomers along with such 'gems' as racing tips, problem sorting, etc.

Previous attempts have all failed, although some worse than others, because of a number of factors, many of which I've indicated above
and I know there are others, but if we could address these 'challenges', I'm sure the time is ripe for the introduction of a TRUE 'starter' class.

Danny"


I think the most important thing mentioned in Danny's words was "It will take a definite committment on many parts."

True. I also feel the time is ripe to introduce a starter class.

Please let me know of any interest. I am aware that there is nothing in place yet regarding costs etc.

I have approached the MPBA, and it would appear that the FSRV race calender is fairly full for the coming year so it is unlikely any events could be "piggy backed" onto FSRV events. I thank them for the speedy response to my email.

Regards,

Glenn Barker
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retro boats

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #1 on: April 13, 2007, 11:20:45 AM »

hello
 i think a restrict ed cost fsrv class would be a excellent idea, i normally have at least 3-4 people ask me where they can get a ic boat from only to be put off by price & availability.
 everyone ha to start somewhere
. i would think even local  clubs would benefit with a lower cost budget class that was recognised nationally. i know a couple of clubs run a sport class using standard  sc 45  a leo 45 engines. i old geared 3,5ccfsrv hulls,
 maybe dave marles could be approached to do a kit with  a sc engine & one of his old grp 3.5cc fsrv hulls.
                     steve
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w3bby

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2007, 12:27:54 PM »

Glenn, I wish you luck with this endeavour ;D

Steve, I guess you missed this from Dave

Entry level racing is difficult to achieve for many reasons but I think its human nature that people see something and want to go with what they see. .......  A current example of this is that I sell an unjoined  .90 size FSRV boat made from polyester with nice shiny gelcoat finish for 80.00 and in comparison I sell a joined  .90 size FSRV boat made from vacuum moulded epoxy carbon kevlar for 365.00.  I sold one of the polyester boats in the last  12 months but last year we couldnt make the epoxy boats fast enough.

I would have thought that a larger engine class 7,5 alt. 15cc would be better as my (limited) understanding of nitro is that they are easier to work with and less finicky to get going reasonably.

OneBladeMissing

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2007, 12:55:15 PM »

The MPBA calendar for FSR-V boats has been described as full. I count 9 events spread over 7 months (not counting the world champs eliminators). There's plenty of room for race meetings. One thing I noticed when I was a member of the MPBA is that they didn't (don't ?) like 'other people's' ideas.
How about a single type of hull ('one make') formula, using standard 7.5cc front-induction/ side-exhaust motor (NO mods permitted), two R/C channels used only (rudder & throttle), NO trim-tabs. Keep it standard, and the rules tight.
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DaveMarles

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #4 on: April 13, 2007, 02:15:52 PM »

Glenn I wish you luck too.
                With regard to FSRV races. The racing days at the main meetings are full as it is. We struggle to get the 35cc class added to the races and we don't need more race meetings because many FSRV racers race abroad too. 
     The people who think a starter class is a good idea should organise it. Its no good saying that FSRV for example should  be pushing this. We've tried it more than once and it doesnt work for us and we've had people devote a lot of time effort and money to it and we don't need to try again with something thats proved to be a dead duck.
  The South Wales racing with stock 40's or .46 submerged drive seems popular. Why not find how they are organising things.

 Dave
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omra85

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #5 on: April 13, 2007, 05:55:42 PM »

So, at least we know where we stand with one section, although I would point out that if the MPBA website is up to date, Dave does not hold an MPBA office.  However, given the undoubted influence he has over the individual race organisers, I would take his last message to read that a new class is not welcome in the MPBA.

Therefore the question we have to ask ourselves is what type of racing do we want to do.  We could approach OMRA, but in all honesty, I feel that the SOME of the current 'Z' class runners would not look favourably on a third class.  It would be the most logical group to 'tie in' with, as the racing calender is already established.  HOWEVER, I'm sure that some would regard it as an intrusion on 'their' racing, although there may be some of the group who believe in the original idea of a low cost class and probably feel somewhat 'cheated' that the classes have now gone 'upmarket'.

There is, of course, nothing to stop anyone joining the MPBA or OMRA as a 'Nationwide' member and run on any water in the UK for which they have permission, giving them the necessary insurance cover for third party liability.  These members could then form an organising body to arrange suitable competitions.  "All" that would be required would be the usual facilities available for regattas held at most clubs.  The club would only need to provide the lake, parking, toilets and a rescue boat (preferably with outboard but not essential).  The better venues would be the ones with the most public access, giving the highest profile of the boats.  The racers themselves 'volunteer' to crew the rescue boat, act as lapscorers, and starter (OOD).  This is often done at club level with minimum available people, so the more you have, the more the 'load' can be spread.  Organising an event is not difficult and, if it goes well, can be a pleasant acheivement on its own!

One of the biggest drawbacks of any model boat racing is the distance needed to travel to actually get to the events and if you have only one class at a meeting, the slightest mishap can result in your days racing being finished.  This is why almost all racers run more than one class of boat, both in multi and OMRA.  Some have up to 4 classes although that is rare.
For that reason alone, I feel that it would be better to get the class racers 'piggy backed' onto existing events if at all possible.  It will be difficult until you can prove the class is popular, which is a 'chicken and egg' situation, as we won't become popular without races and we don't get races until we're popular.  And that's why SOME will write it off as a dead duck from the start!

Another thing to look at is - are we trying to re-invent the wheel.  Is there something out there that fits the bill as far as a cheap, simple RTR boat?  If so, what type of racing would it be most suitable for, given that the idea is to encourage newcomers to progress to bigger, faster boats OF THAT TYPE eventually.
A quick look at the American sites reveals a number of RTR boats, and a long trawl through the forums reveals that most have quite a few initial 'teething problems'.  One that seems better than most is the Aquacraft Nitro Hammer which is available through Ripmax so could also be obtained from a local dealer who is a Ripmax agent.  The price is a bit hefty at 219, but that does include a pull start .15 cu in motor, tuned pipe, and 2 channel Futaba(ish) radio.
The Ripmax website is abysmal and has no detail but more information is available from the manufacturer
http://www.aquacraftmodels.com/boats/aqub26-main.html

Why do I think that an RTR would be better than a 'home design'?  Although the home design would be far more interesting to existing boaters who will be looking for a challenge, we are not trying to appeal to them (us) as there are already enough classes available now. It could also be probably built cheaper using the hull from xxx, the motor from yyy, and the rest of the bits from zzz, but who's going to put the kits together?  We already know one answer, and I suspect that others couldn't be bothered either.  Lets face it, it's a gamble which if it took off could result in untold riches (well perhaps a modest profit) for the supplier, but if it didn't they could be left with stock that wouldn't sell.  As I said earlier, I would love it to be a UK boat, but with what I've heard of current suppliers - no chance!

So, what do you all think of things so far?  I know most of my messages raise more question than supply answers but believe me, NOW is the time to sort these things out. Then when the class gets going it is more likely to be the first one to SUCCEED.

Danny
 
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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2007, 11:46:14 AM »

hi   
 i sent a email to the south wales club yesterday to find out more on there club 40 class here is my reply

We decided on S.C. 40 or asp 40 that are the same engines and cheap. 
no tuning allowed, tuned pipe or aircraft mufflers.  aircraft mufflers
fall apart or snap at the manifold.  submerged drive only.  your choice
of hull, mono only. Run over a short multi coarse.  Two 10mint heats
for one race no rescue but if you can wade for your boat or it drifts
back you can re-enter it in the heat.  It is a very popular form of
racing in our club as there is not much difference in speed between all
boats.  close racing good fun and cheep.  about 10 or 11 members race
club 40 it is also very entertaining to watch,  video on website next
month if you want more e-mail me.

Jeff

if none of the governing body's will recognise a new class. could it not be started a club level if the same rules were used at each club
they could then run open events to allow others to come & race
if south wales are getting 10-11 boats turn up thats almost twice the amount we used to get running at my old club (southampton) in any class.so much so that racing died completely




the club 40 class seems ideal to me as the engines are cheap hulls should be easy to find. my friend in germany who normally builds my boats for me. can mould 3 types of  design of suitable hulls for around 90 Euros i think a few uk clubs used to have suitable hull moulds as well .
 
    look forward to anymore suggestions    steve
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martno1fan

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2007, 09:31:54 AM »

well done Glenn and Danny it looks like you might have a chance of starting something here,however i find it typical of certain suppliers and bodys attitudes that they cant be bothered to even try to help.id like to ask Dave who he intends to sell all his sports engines to? he sells the sc range but seems not willing to consider he could benefit a great deal if this class gets off the ground.i applaud all the efforts you guys are giving to this idea ,i for one like the idea of a club class with open events !!.if dave or whoever doesnt want to make the hulls needed to start a class maybe he could at least make a mould available for someone else to manufacture the hulls,im sure he  has some old moulds lying around that could be used.failing that i see no reason why any hull so long as it has the same size engine cannot be allowed to compete in this class.
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DaveMarles

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2007, 10:54:26 AM »

Mart, I've served my time helping this hobby with a lot of my personal time and money (and still do) so have a go at someone else.  As a matter of interest I supply the Elmbridge club with their Atlantor hardware kits at a discounted price and special props for the South Wales boats and I used to supply the North Wales club with their Alpha 20 kits when they ran a beginners class until they lost their lake to tree huggers.
    My comments re. the beginners class are just a reality check based on previous experience and my opinion as to what will get new people into boat racing.  If you have a different opinion then thats fine but thats all it is, a different opinion.

 Dave
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martno1fan

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2007, 01:19:59 PM »

Point taken Dave but just because its failed before doent mean it will this time!!,i know your a very nice guy and very helpfull which is why your comments sort of went against the grain a bit.You have influence im sure that could maybe help get this class kick started,for me it would need to be a club class as i cant travel the country like a lot of you guys as i suspect neither can most people.Sorry if i offended you Dave ,as you know ive said good things about you and even got myself in a few arguments lol so dont think im having a go at you(much lol).I think im the only person running a petrol or ic powered boat in blackpool that i know of so wont be much racing going on at the lake i use  ::).
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DaveMarles

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2007, 03:15:09 PM »

Mart, I'm not offended at all.
     
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martno1fan

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2007, 04:16:41 PM »

Mart, I'm not offended at all.
     

[/quote

Thats good to know mate as i seem to upset a few peeps on another site or maybe our american friends are just too touchy lol  ;D.
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glennb2006

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2007, 01:00:55 AM »

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions so far.

Now for the acid test - is anyone interested in this proposal fomr existing modellers, guess that is where it needs to start.

Please let me know. I realise nothing is sorted yet regarding costs or class of racing, just trying to gauge interest levels.

Thanks.

Glenn
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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2007, 11:05:24 AM »

hello
 
 if the rules set up the similar to south Wales club 40. we have 4 of us in portsmouth running boats already.with another 2 being built
 if not  i defiantly would  be interested. may even get 2 built to see if I can drum up interest down here & hope some more will jump on bag waggon.
 i do agree that a photo build would be a very good idea
                 good luck steve
 
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omra85

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2007, 11:07:49 PM »

Well, being as I seem to have a lot to say (waffle - some would say), I would like to 'volunteer' as one of the guinea pigs.
Although I'm going to have a VERY busy season, I would like to 'put my money where my mouth is' and help get something started.

We've had Jeff and Steve saying that there is already a loose 'eco' class in S Wales and Portsmouth.  I suppose that the main 'users' of this class will not want to travel to the ends of the UK to run them, so it looks like club or area competitions would be favourite?

What type of hull are you using Steve (looks from your Avatar that you're a multi fan).  Are they easy to get hold of - and cheap?

The OMRA 'Z' class took off because there was no other class of that size to compete with.  Would 40 be a popular size?  (Don't answer if you've a 40 sat in the back of the workshop doing nothing)

Regards (and thanks for this Glenn)

Danny
 

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2007, 05:17:33 PM »

hi glen 
 now up to 5 boats most of the hulls are old now out of date geared 3.5cc fsrv boats a monsa. & storm  converted to take direct drive os 40s one bought from ebay for 65 a old alpha 40 with a irvine 40 sport & shg Parana with a webra 40, i have a nearly finished rfk scorpion with a os vrm. awaiting the radio gear. the fellow with the piranha has almost finished a sigma with a irvine 40 rear.+ i also have a hydro fiber predator irvine powered
 as i collect old multi racers i have a fee spare hulls around as well
my German friend can mould his own stinger hull & a ram charger hull shown
 we used 40 size engines for there cost cheapish to buy stay in tune & dont blow up like 3.5s not as expensive to run as bigger engines (even cheaper on caster straight)
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martno1fan

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2007, 06:37:06 PM »

nice boat wonder if i can get a petrol motor in there  ;) hehe.
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Rob_g

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #17 on: April 24, 2007, 10:29:13 AM »

Hi Guys

I have a Storm that I have not built yet that I will be willing to put a straight 40/46 in, just like the good old days. The reason I haven't built this hull is due to not wanting to travel too far to race. Has there been much interest so far and any proposals as to regatta venues?

Rob


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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2007, 02:43:08 PM »

hi bob
 glad to here someone else is interested. sounds you are like me you would be willing to race but do not want to spend a fortune or travel 100s of miles to race.
the boats we run down here are a mixture of old & new 1 having been reserected from the attic after 14 years.
 i dont think there has been any rules set up yet just My idea of a club 40 size as there a some running  at the moment at a couple of clubs
     
 regards steve
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Rob_g

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2007, 03:26:12 PM »

Steve

Lets hope something gets off the ground however there is a lot of distance between us i am in Sheffield!

Rob
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glennb2006

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2007, 12:38:23 AM »

I am encouraged that there is interest. Good.

I have been having a look around at availability of pull start motors, another way to keep cost down, no starter required, but can only find .18 motors. Anyone know of anything a bit bigger available? Thinking a .40 class at least should have some "go".

Glenn
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Andy

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2007, 09:09:33 AM »

http://www.justengines.co.uk/

Have a look at the above, Leo make a 46 pull start - 75
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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2007, 10:49:07 AM »

hi all
one if the guys down here hare has ordered a pullstart leo 46 & is waiting on a quote on a swan neck manifold to put in a  shg shark they seem a good value for the money
           
              steve
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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #23 on: April 28, 2007, 11:41:18 AM »

hi
 bad news on the leo 46 pullstart engine. just engines have informed my friend that it is no  longer available, so he has bought a non pull start version instead
 i think pull start marine engines are quite rare lots of buggy motors about but by the tine you covert them it w/c head + a flywheel you could buy a starter
 has anybody tried a Cordless electric engine starter that i have seen advertised  ?  this this may life a bit simpler if it works
                   steve
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martno1fan

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Re: Limited Cost Racing Class Proposal
« Reply #24 on: April 28, 2007, 12:16:17 PM »

when you say cordless engine starter what type do you mean?
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