Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length.

[Colin Bishop]

Why we allow this to happen is beyond me.

Because, unfortunately, it panders to many people's prejudices. Yes, most people, wherever they come from, are peaceable and just want to get on with their lives. Unfortunately there are a significant minority who prefer troublemaking and an even greater minority who are easily led and don't think for themselves. And that accounts for most of the ills of this world.

You can see a microcosm of this in the behaviour on this Forum, it's hardly unique and the Internet does allow people to expose their dark sides, hiding behind screen names without fear of reprisal.

Colin

[armc40]

I have lived long enough to know that what the politicians use on most occasions to divide us are religion & nationality. Why we allow this to happen is beyond me. My friends come from all over the world. I find some people are mean & nasty, others are the salt of the earth.I have NEVER found these traits to be a national thing, the negatives are mostly caused by greed & jealousy, or on the positive side by good will & generosity. It seems to take a long time to instill this in most peoples brains in todays society, in most cases it never happens to most of us. I must say I have found the latter in a majority on this forum with a few notable exceptions, too few to bother about. I try to stay a long way away from the trouble makers, but I will not back off if the circumstances warrant it. The moderators do a good job in general but like all things human need to be called to account on some occasions. For Europe as a whole to pull together & succeed is in the end the best solution in my thinking, for all to share or prosper. People loosing their homes & jobs no matter where they live is a benefit to none of us,managed right there is enough for us all, unfortunately here again greed & jealousy rears its ugly head. Eventually we the people will have to call a halt to this greedy merry go round & make the people that cause it pay heavily.Mick B.

sorry  I didn't quite catch that....could you repeat please ?

[armc40]

And while we're at it Mart,  is there any chance you could rename the 'EU Money' thread 'Philosophy101' ?

[Norseman]

rename the 'EU Money' thread 'Philosophy101' ?

But Mick's final comments on personal greed really is a problem for the EC and the Euro......... the world.
The greed displayed from top to bottom in Greece is in great part 'the' problem there.
Colin recognises that when people don't think for themselves it accounts for many ills of this world.
And it might be naiveof me but I believe that caring about others is not a bad starting point for a solution.

'Apathy & The Philosophy of greed 101'
Discuss in 2000 words The Eurozone and why Mayhemmers can't save it'

Dave

[irishcarguy]

Thank you Dave, but if we fail to see why the Euro is in the mess it is in, & the causes that have brought the U.S.ofA. & Europe to its knees & all we can do is mock the people that have fallen into the hole that greed & corruption has caused there is not much hope of fixing it. Those that caused it should be in jail for a long time & all their illgotten profits confiscated. However I will gladly listen to other solutions just tell me what you suggest. Mick B.

[Norseman]

The seemingly immenent 'fall of the Euro' is in fact a politicaly brought about vehicle designed to impose ever tighter European 'constriction'  'Unity'
The fact that I recognise this, isn't a comment upon my view of whether that further aligment is good, merely that the powerful desire it; and the powerful have
often acted from self interest.

Dave

[Shipmate60]

The Euro was political not fiscal.
To some there was merit in a single currency for Europe which would eventually bring closer political union.
The basis for joining the Euro was fiddled to allow the majority of Europe to join.
It worked reasonably well during boom economy where the problems could just be ignored, but when things became tighter the problems became apparent.
When economies start to struggle the 2 main weapons are devalue and reduce interest rates.
Neither of these options are available within the Euro so the weaker economies stalled.
The debt crisis worsened as the true figures started to emerge about beach Government debt and banking debt.
The Euro was set up for the northern countries so the southern countries are now struggling, IE Greece.
But the contasion is spreading.
Unless there is far greater political and fiscal union there is a danger that bit will start to unravel.

Bob

[armc40]

...come the revolution citizens !

[essex2visuvesi]

[Norseman]

and for those considering moderation .....

 

[armc40]

hmmmmmmmmmmm    now who's first I wonder ??

[Bob K]

Something I don’t quite understand about the terminology and workings of the banking industry.  As I understand it the Stock Exchange is where individuals can ‘speculate’ (gamble) on whether a commodity is likely to rise or fall in value.  If they 'guess' right they can ‘win’ dividends, like a sort of Lotto Casino for Yuppies.

However, when bankers ‘speculate’ with other peoples money and get it badly wrong it is us who suffer whilst their jobs and bonuses remain secure.  Strange how these professional gamblers remain untouchable whilst Europe and the World go into free fall melt down.  

Am I missing something obvious here, or is gambling with other peoples money (eg: pensioners savings) not simply fraud?

[dodgy geezer]

.......
However, when bankers ‘speculate’ with other peoples money and get it badly wrong it is us who suffer whilst their jobs and bonuses remain secure.  Strange how these professional gamblers remain untouchable whilst Europe and the World go into free fall melt down.  

Am I missing something obvious here, or is gambling with other peoples money (eg: pensioners savings) not simply fraud?

Under a pure capitalist system the banks would simply go bust and the bankers would lose their jobs and all their money (and probably be put in jail or hung). This 'market force' pressure is what would keep them from taking too many risks and getting things wrong.

However, we are NOT living under a pure capitalist system. Since WW2 we have developed strong elements of socialism - central bureaucratic control where the bureaucrats are meant to override market forces for our 'best interests'.  What we have now achieved is a merger of the worst elements of both these systems - where the greed of capitalism is no longer constrained by market forces, and the state simply rewards its friends by providing them with taxpayer's money and suppressing the harsher effects of competition by extensive regulation.

Happened in the Soviet Union - happening to us now....

[Norseman]

I think this guy is on the ball

[deadwood]

Could anyone of you capitalism/Euro experts explain to me the weird concept of a Bad Bank?

As an aside, to me personally the term Bad Bank almost always sounds like a tautology per se.

So, is it a sort of panacea to the financial meltdown and debt crisis?

Then I'd wish to perpetuate my own personal bad bank black hole
that would automagically slurp all my tax, social insurance, mortgage claims etc, and of course my debts, that have accumulated
over paying for my ever increasing fees all those Renewable Energy Law subsidies and bailout funds for domestic and even foreign revenue and bonus millionaires, bankrupts and imposters.

[armc40]

Plus could anyone please tell me where I can get a Bailout application form ?

[Netleyned]

Tug Kenny should have some left over after all the bailing out he has had to do   

Ned

[Norseman]

Plus could anyone please tell me where I can get a Bailout application form ?

Exit do quite a good bail out form but I can't really see you wanting it yet?

Hey Deadwood, I guess a lot of this discussion will be tautilogical , moreso when people are quite near to agreement - even if that agreement is essentially only from a prejudice and has no real understanding of the underlying issues - oops there's another one If you really want a blackhole for your money, I'll send you my son.

Dave

[essex2visuvesi]

If you really want a blackhole for your money, I'll send you my son.

Dave

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAKaJE4gjYg

About 35s in :)

[Norseman]

Filmed live in my home
I never missed a show when it was first on tv- and I watch very little telly - classic.

Dave

[Shipmate60]

Not in any way an expert just interested.

Could anyone of you capitalism/Euro experts explain to me the weird concept of a Bad Bank?

A Bad Bank is set up to include all the known bad liabilities of a bank that is guaranteed by the taxpayer.
Northern Rock is one example. The toxic loans were bundled up and guaranteed by the government.
This enables the bank to effectively remove those liabilities from the balance sheet so making it appear solvent.

Bob
The Stock Exchange allows individuals or organisations to invest in companies.
The gamble is on the share price and dividends.
The real gambling is carried out by the investment part of the bank, this is where bundles of supreme mortgages were bundled with other derivatives and those buying them didn't even know!!!

Bob

[deadwood]

- even if that agreement is essentially only from a prejudice and has no real understanding of the underlying issues -

D'accord, totally agree that I lack real understanding of the underlying issues.
I have never had any financial professional education, nor have I ever worked in the finance sector.
I have a technical background, if any at all. I.e. did an apprenticeship as electrician some 30 years ago. Later went to uni to graduate as engineer. Now working in the IT.
But I know for sure that I would have been held fully responsible for any tinkering I would have done which would have led to any material damage or even bodily harm as electrician in that profession.
The same of course would apply to any blunders I would have done as engineer or now if I caused any loss of data on the servers and storage that I am supposed to administer.

So I ask in all humbleness where went the expertise of all those highly paid (many times higher than what I will ever earn for a living) financial pundits and advisors within such governmental control boards such as the BaFin?
Where was the expertise in-depth knowledge and consideration of the directors of e.g. the WestLB that had to be bailed out by the taxpayers who where held accountable as hostages for those who wriggled out unpunished?

[mikearace]

Norseman wrote

If you really want a blackhole for your money, I'll send you my son.

Swap you one black hole son for two daughters getting married within 6 months of each other!! 'bottomless pit' doesnt come anywhere near it.

[deadwood]

As for black hole kin, thanks dave for your kind offer, but I am myself blessed with 4 black hole kids (1 girl and 3 boys).

[Norseman]

I also have a black hole moneypit of a daughter but at least she is cute............. for just a little while longer anyway.
............. also the further I get into boats the more I spend, and worse I realise now I plan to spend more; My God! where are my tablets

One problem with the banks is that at some point the people in charge ceased to be required to hold the long respected qualifications of the Banking  industry.

Dave