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Author Topic: Drought in Engerland  (Read 15287 times)

essex2visuvesi

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2012, 07:08:40 AM »

Yup

2 - It doesn't matter how wet it gets. Down in the SE we haven't got enough reservoirs, so we can't store enough of it for when it's not raining. The government won't allow us to put any more reservoirs in - they say that water is too scarce, and we must use less of it instead....   

The mind boggles at the logic used there
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Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2012, 08:05:47 AM »

The government are blindly following a European directive on the 10% - I think it was on the news (not sure when).

If everyone just stopped huddling ever tighter into one corner of the country that would help too.

Dave
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2012, 09:46:24 AM »

The mind boggles at the logic used there

I have a letter from CCWater (the official body representing the water consumer) which says that although there is a lot of water on this planet, most of it is undrinkable because it is in the sea, so we must conserve the diminishing amount of fresh water we do have.

They do not appear to understand the hydrological cycle!

(In fact, it's worse. We have been 'ordered' by the EU environmental directives to cut our water consumption per head per day by 2030, and the officials are just casting around for a set of words to justify this. The current usage is 150L - we are expected to drop this to 130L or 120L. That is a 20% drop! Source 'Water Futures - 2008')
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Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2012, 10:33:12 AM »

Apply that logic to Air. There is a finite amount of it, most of it is elsewhere, reduce your intake by 2030 or else :police:
some simple measures  -

expel some of the aliens - 10% saving there at least
ban all exercise - but would only work in the south really, already done that here
shut me up...........  {-) priceless but can't be done (though the Mods occasionally prove me wrong on that <:()

Now Canada has an excessive amount of clean air and for the most part nobody is even using it.

Dave
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2012, 10:46:09 AM »

Plenty of water here as well.... nice clear water (well it is up here not so sure about down in Helsinki)

The lake that feeds our well is huge, it runs from here to Tampere which is 150kms south.
When you consider that Finland is 130,596 sq mi and has a population around 5.5million and England is 50,346 sq mi with a population of 52million we are positively swimming in the stuff (and do)
Its always amazed me that model boating is not a bigger hobby here than it is... Plenty of local wood for materials and you are rarely more than a few miles from a lake
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irishcarguy

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2012, 02:34:33 PM »

Here in Canada where we have between 20 & 25% of the planets total fresh water, depending on who you believe, we still get the story of there being a water shortage.We are only 33 million people & have 25% of the total planet supply of fresh water & we have a water shortage, LOL. Of course what we don't use winds up in the ocean anyway. What is really going on is that private interests (read crooks) see a bottomless pit of money if they could ever get control of it. I find it hard to believe that a national resource that belongs to us all could be taken over & then sold back to us by the crooks despite we being the original owners of it in the first place. The Americans are always casting their eyes north & have made lots of noise about we "sharing" with them & of course there are those among us that would be happy to sell. Some among us would not like them to have empty swimming pools in the middle of the desert states poor things.The problem is if that ever happened that we "shared" our water with them,under the present "free" trade agreement if once sold to them it cannot be reversed, that is without a war, & we all know how America plays the "share" game. The "free trade" agreement states that we have to treat the Americans exactly the same as our own people, you have to question the brains of any politician that would sign a deal like that & what did they get under the table. If any of you have the time take a look @ the Columbia River Treaty that was signed with the Americans & how they got control of the river & lakes, it is frightening to say the least. So far we are lucky, water was not part of the original "free trade agreement".What I don't understand is how private interests in the U/K got hold of all your water rights in the first place. The local council here in Calgary offers you a $100.00.discount on your water bill for every lo/flush toilet you install. Of course what they then do is inspect your home & raise your taxes because of the improvements you have made,pretty sneaky I would say. As far as that goes the less they know about me the better, Canadians will freely give out their private information to most anyone. I can see things getting very nasty in the not too distant future when people start to wake up & realise what has happened while they were asleep., it should be interesting times to say the least. Mick B.
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Mick B.

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2012, 02:46:34 PM »

Now Canada has an excessive amount of clean air and for the most part nobody is even using it.

 %) Doh - wrong again!!! I forgot about Mick  {-)

Yes, if you sell to the Americans I can see your water prices being increased at least - though you have the water to spare, would you have to build greater infrastructure? Would the Americans contract for the local resources nearer the border, with the local population then paying for supplies from further afield? Who knows when it is all profit driven?

Dave
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2012, 03:23:39 PM »

[quote author=irishcarguy link=topic=37627.msg380187#msg380187 date=134132


Here in Canada where we have between 20 & 25% of the planets total fresh water, depending on who you believe, we still get the story of there being a water shortage.We are only 33 million people & have 25% of the total planet supply of fresh water & we have a water shortage, LOL. .....
[/quote]

Nobody on Earth has a WATER shortage. There are a couple of cubic kilometers of water for every man, woman and child on the planet. And furthermore, when you use it it is not destroyed, but just flows round the hydrological cycle to be used again. There is no reason everybody should not have as much water as they want.

What we DO have, frequently, are INFRASTRUCTURE shortages. There is loads of water available, but it needs to be captured, stored, purified and piped to where it is needed. That is, actually, quite a cheap process, and the water companies (at least in the UK) are happy enough to pay for it. But what is amazing is that they are being prevented from doing so by the UK Government and the EU.

These bodies have listened to environmental activists, who have a simple mantra for 'natural shortages'; "We must conserve!". So they are 'conserving' the water supply by forcing people to use less! This is madness. But it is happening, and nobody in authority seems to care enough to point out why it is wrong... 
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Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #58 on: July 03, 2012, 03:33:23 PM »

There is no reason everybody should not have as much water as they want.

I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each  <*< >>:-(

Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.

Dave
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #59 on: July 03, 2012, 03:49:00 PM »

I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each  <*< >>:-(

Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.

Dave

Make them have cold showers or go swim in the lake :)

Now in my day.....
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irishcarguy

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #60 on: July 03, 2012, 04:35:20 PM »

Dave if we were ever stupid enough to sell to the Americans & the day arrived that we would need to restrict or curtail the sales can you imagine what would happen?. Selling your countries non renewable natural resources to the highest bidder is not a good long term policy, worse yet is letting other countries & private corporations take control of them. It is a complex subject but caution is never a bad idea before you make moves that can't or would be very difficult to reverse.There are people that would like a monopoly on air, water, & the food supply, all things necessary needed to sustain life, these should NEVER be in the control of private individuals, my opinion & quite a few others as well. Mick B. 
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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #61 on: July 03, 2012, 04:39:11 PM »

unfortunately, here, they are already  in the hands of shareholders and executive boards already.

Dave
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irishcarguy

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #62 on: July 03, 2012, 04:58:27 PM »

Hi Dodgy, you are correct, water does not disappear it just goes round & round, ask the astronauts they know & I won't expand on it. To Dave, I am not aware of how that happened in England. Mick B.
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Mick B.

Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #63 on: July 03, 2012, 05:15:25 PM »

Now in my day.....

Let me guess, it was a wet tuesday afternoon, somewhere near the junction of routes 18 and 66 and the sound of the chainsaws of Alavus buzzed faintly, no Visuvesi bus today so you walked %). Yes, I could have done Essex but hey your place is more romantic

Well, that's exactly the sort of response I'd get from my kids for anything faintly historical - so I can never start with 'in my day'

Dave
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #64 on: July 03, 2012, 05:54:17 PM »

Let me guess, it was a wet tuesday afternoon, somewhere near the junction of routes 18 and 66 and the sound of the chainsaws of Alavus buzzed faintly, no Visuvesi bus today so you walked %). Yes, I could have done Essex but hey your place is more romantic

Well, that's exactly the sort of response I'd get from my kids for anything faintly historical - so I can never start with 'in my day'

Dave

Now thats some local Knowledge lol

I guess google is on your christmas card list  ;D
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #65 on: July 03, 2012, 07:18:13 PM »

I don't object to my kids using water - just to them using hot water by showering for an hour at a time, each  <*< >>:-(

Seriously though - we can't look at water as a stand alone item - we have to look at the energy usage that water entails - so there is a good environmental arguement to be made.

Dave

No there isn't. I've done the calculations. As an example, storing rainwater is about 80 times more expensive AND worse for the environment than using mains piped water. But that's a point for another thread....
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Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #66 on: July 03, 2012, 07:37:30 PM »

I don't see it Dodgy - If it takes X amount for a decent shower and my kids use 10X then ten times the water is pumped here by the waterboard, ten times the gas heating, ten times electrically pumped upstairs, bathroom lights and fans are on longer than needed. Then there's the waste water to be purified too. That is a lot of needlessly wasted energy.

Plus all the hot air I produce because I really need the loo O0 >>:-( <:(

Dave
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wullie/mk2

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #67 on: July 03, 2012, 09:11:01 PM »

I,m surprised the water companies don,t ask us to perhaps share a bath,
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Norseman

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #68 on: July 03, 2012, 09:19:59 PM »

You talking to me? {-)
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armc40

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #69 on: July 03, 2012, 09:43:37 PM »

Now in my day....we were so poor that during a drought we were forced to dilute the water !
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #70 on: July 03, 2012, 10:04:49 PM »


I don't see it Dodgy - If it takes X amount for a decent shower and my kids use 10X then ten times the water is pumped here by the waterboard, ten times the gas heating, ten times electrically pumped upstairs, bathroom lights and fans are on longer than needed. Then there's the waste water to be purified too. That is a lot of needlessly wasted energy...


You are quite correct that if you use 10x of anything, then the absolute costs are going to be higher than 1x of something. But your comment that this is 'needlessly wasted energy' takes us into a whole new ballgame of discussion, more appropriate for a book than a thread here! Remember, my initial point was not that using energy was not expensive, but that it was not 'an environmental cost'.

If you consider the costs of 'standardly provided water' vs the same amount of water provided in a 'green fashion', it is relatively easy to show that with the huge costs associated with things like local building rainwater capture, storage and dual-pipe 'grey water' use, reservoirs and mains piping are far cheaper and (if you want to believe that CO2 and energy use is bad) much more 'environmentally friendly'. The maintenance costs of filter changing and chemical anti-algae treatment for dual-pipe systems alone are horrendous. In fact, reservoir water storage, purification and sewage treatment, once set up (as the Victorians did for us) is a very cheap process.

But you have widened the field to consider general energy costs. Again, you are correct to imply that at the moment these are very high, and if you want to save money it is appropriate to cut its use as far as possible. My concern is that energy costs are high, not because that is the cost of energy production, but because environmental activists want people generally to cut energy for idealistic reasons - religious, if you will - and have persuaded politicians to increase costs considerably via taxes in order to achieve this. During the 1950s it was believed that nuclear generated electricity would become 'too cheap to meter', and that energy would be, for household purposes, effectively free. There is no technological reason why this should not be the case - the base costs of nuclear generation are very low - but determined activism coupled with capitalist love of profit has meant that society has kept energy costs artificially high. Current 'green' taxes are pushing this to the brink.

So I agree that using 'a lot' of energy is currently expensive - but maintain that it is expensive for political reasons, not fundamental technical ones, and not environmental ones.

Is having an hour-long hot bath 'wasting energy'? It is certainly expensive for the reasons I have given above - and that may be all that is needed to close the argument if it is your wallet paying for it. But I am a follower of Julian Simon's Cornucopia theory, and note that personal energy use has relentlessly increased throughout the ages. In 1900 a person would be controlling about 750 watts if he was traveling somewhere - by 1950 that figure would be about 20Kw, and today we think nothing of using 100Kw. Simon's theory stresses that each generation must and will use more and more resources, and that they will never run out. Google it for details, or have a look here: http://www.webcitation.org/5Xu64dbNz  A bit of a read, but well worth it...

Your sons are just following Simon's laws. And the energy isn't 'wasted' - for their generation it's the norm. That's what Simon means when he says that:

"..the material conditions of life will continue to get better for most people, in most countries, most of the time, indefinitely..."

What would your grandfather have said if he could see you running central heating on a cold night? I'm guessing that a small coal fire would have been good enough for him? His 'waste of resources' is today's norm, and, so long as environmental activists don't get their way, tomorrow's humans will laugh at our meagre lifestyles...  






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pugwash

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #71 on: July 03, 2012, 10:51:36 PM »

That might be fine for a lot of totally pampered western European kids to have an hour long hot shower perhaps they should try it is some part of the world where
electricity and water resources are not so generous - It might be good practise for them as we might have resource shortages in a few years time

Geoff.
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dodgy geezer

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #72 on: July 03, 2012, 11:21:17 PM »

.....r perhaps they should try it is some part of the world where
electricity and water resources are not so generous - It might be good practise for them as we might have resource shortages in a few years time


If we do have resources shortages here (and we may well) it will not be because natural resources are short, but it will be because we have created those shortages by not providing properly - by not building power stations, reservoirs and other things.

Simon said that "...within a century or two, all nations and most of humanity will be at or above today's Western living standards. I also speculate, however, that many people will continue to think and say that the conditions of life are getting worse..."

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pugwash

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2012, 11:29:22 PM »

D.G. I think with several billion more people on this planet further down the line - if they are all living up to current western european standards
something has to give somewhere - Im glad I won't be around but I do worry about my grandchildren and their generation and beyond

Geoff
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Bob K

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Re: Drought in Engerland
« Reply #74 on: July 04, 2012, 12:08:15 AM »

18% of the human body consists of carbon.  If we are really serious on climate change then maybe the best way to absorb substantial quantities of carbon from the environment is to accelerate the population explosion.    %%
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