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Author Topic: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated  (Read 13482 times)

fastvee

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Hello, my friend asked me to build him the Bremen. I have build many fiberglass fast boats but never a kit. I belive the hull in this kit is frp(I guess it means plastic that is reinforced with glass cloth)

My first question is what kind of glue I should get,gluing the plywood parts to hull and since I dont have the boat here yet I dont know what else then glue is needed to build her.

I understand that "stabilit express" is somehing most graupner kit builders use, but it is expensive and I dont know is there alternatives to it -or can I just use CA and epoxy?

We ordered these items to start:

2xKondensator(gross)Btl2 Graupner 3588

2xSPEED 600 BB TURBO 12 V Graupner 3302
 
WP BREMEN 9 Graupner

Pattex Stabilit Express 80g Graupner 960.85
(if this is not enough. please le me know)

We plan to use 3s lipos(11.1v) for power, any ideas how much the Amp draw is on these motors on around 12 volts?
(or is lead batteries a batter option to get some weight in)




Any ideas are welcome and I hope to get started soon with the build(the boat is here next week)

-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2012, 05:30:03 PM »

ADHESIVES
Adhesives may be in tube form (polystyrene cement) or in liquid form such as Humbrol Liquid Poly or MEK
(methyl ethyl ketone) which is best applied with a brush. The technique is to apply a few drops of the solvent
and the glue will run down the joint by capillary attraction. The following glues are recommended:
Fibreglass to plastic:   two-part epoxy (Devcon, Araldite, Speed Epoxy) - 10 min. or 1 hour.  
Plastic to plastic:   ordinary plastic solvent (Revel, Liquid Poly, Slaters, MEK).  
Whitemetal to whitemetal: two-part epoxy (5min.) or thick superglue (Pro-Bond, MFA etc.)  
Whitemetal to plastic:   two-part epoxy or thick superglue.  
Wood to plastic:   two-part epoxy, thick superglue or contact adhesive.  
Brass to plastic:   R/C Modellers craft glue or thick superglue.  
Rubber Fendering:   contact adhesive (UHU, Bostik).  
Window glazing:  Weldbond, RC Modeller's Craft Glue or clear contact adhesive (UHU, Bostik
etc

http://www.modelslipway.com/

Hope this helps.
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2012, 05:56:46 PM »

Thanks for the glue info.

I think I will use stabilit express on critical parts(motor mounts,etc. and epoxy on other bits. Also thinking of giving all the plywood a nice epoxy coating.

Now I need to think what esc I need, would one do or do I need 2..Hmmm....-maybe I´ll get 2 castle sidewinders, castle has never let me down b4 and 2 should be plenty for these motors. -need to think about that a while.
-are there any reliable esc´s out there for boats, 12 volts  and not too expensive? (3s lipo that I plan to use is 11.1v ,fully charged 12.6v)

I see that the stall current is 40A on these motors, do I really need to get 80A esc or 2 40A ones, that cant be correct?

(from graupner):
Nominal voltage 12 V
Operating voltage range 4,8-14,4 V
No-load rpm 17200
No-load current drain 1 A
Current drain at max. efficiency 7 A
Current drain when stalled 40 A
Max. efficiency without gearbox 77 %
Length of case, excl. shaft 57 mm
Diameter 37 mm
Free shaft length 8.7 mm
Shaft diameter 3.17 mm
Weight 220 g

-Pate
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roycv

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 06:56:42 PM »

Hi Fastvee, got your PM.  I built the model when it first came out in the middle of 1995.  I built it as a review model for Int. Marine Modelling magazine.  I do not have the model any more.

The review was in Int MM Feb / Mar. 1996.  So we are talking 17 years ago!
My general thoughts in retrospect are.
I used aluminium tubing instead of wood dowel for the boat stand.  This was to get a good solid base.
The hull is plastic and I used bags of lead shot in the hull when on the stand to keep it stable.

I used much the same motors on 12 volts and she went very well.  Each motor took 7 amps so it was 14 amps drain altogether.  I used a single esp and she responded very well to the rudders.
The esc I used at the time was the 15 amp Electronize with my own simple water cooling plate and the esc ran stone cold, not so the 5 Ahr Ni-cads, they were almost too hot to touch.
Boat ran for about 40 minutes.

The props were 32.5mm diameter, that's all you need.

I used Stablit Express for the wood to plastic glue which is gap filling but there are othes on the market now.

The most crucial glueing is the wood formers to the stern, this must be square.
I mention in my article that the stern cradle is very thin plastic at the corners.

The inwhales that are the top inside deck edge are balsa, I did not like this and suggest beech or similar.  You drill through this to support the stanchions.

I did the finishing of the deck on a flat surface prior to sticking down as the ply is quite thin.  If you use Halfords metallic paints don't forget the clear finish coat required.

Just general things like put tape around the hull top edge to stop glue from sticking to it when placing the deck.
The stanchions are made up with washers that have to take the angle of the deck.  I made my stanchions up on a separate pre-drilled base and soldered them but super glue would do just as well.

Bending wire around the rope boxes.  If you first heat the wire to cherry red and cool it.  It will then bend very well around the plastic and stay bent (Annealing)

Most of the cut out plastic doors etc benefit from having a scrap ply backing.

I did not like the screw holding the hatch down so constructed a hatch over it to hide it away.
I enjoyed the fire monitor, pity you will not be fitting it.  I had it turning via a servo and sharing the water cooling of the esc.

You can switch the lights on and off and It is worth working out a simple power connection via a plug and socket, so that the cabin can be easily removed.

Good luck with the build, she looks very nice on the water and made the front page of the February magazine edition.

regards Roy
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 08:28:04 PM »

Thanks alot Roy!

That is alot of information there.

15A esc ? -wow, so single (60A cont. ,100A burst) sidewinder esc should be plenty then!

32.5mm props? -the ones that´s included in the kit or something else?  -thinking of getting raboesh 3 bladed brass ones later, but for starters I was planning of using the kit props.


I did not even know the boat is that old , 17 years ago! -and you remember all these things... -I cant remember what I had for lunch yesterday!


I am thinking of using faskolor(airbrush, acrylic water based) paints, and spray acrylic 2k clear from rattle can afterwards.



I will think about using that fire monitor, it is cool, but I belive that it needs the extra fittings kit to get that working, and I dont want to pay 150€ for that simple kit.

http://www.hobbypeople.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=96_316&products_id=24908&language=en




Thanks again,

-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2012, 11:10:00 PM »

Hi Fastvee, I cheated!  I looked out the magazines and did a quick read.

I think the 32.5 mm props came with the kit.

Your batteries will be lighter than the Ni-cads I used, so the boat should go faster.

I don't think that the parts shown amount to 150 Euros!  I am sure the fire monitors can be bought as little kits for no more than £15 - £20.

I used Halfords spray paints.

I seem to remember checking the rpm with props in the water and it was about 9000 rpm.
It shows how good the Electronize esc is as it worked at full power all the time.
I think the mast, which hinges, was a bit fiddly with the working lights.  I think I mentioned that it would be better cut 1mm oversize and be strengthened.

The Authority that runs these boats paints the decks a metallic  grey colour and not as in the instructions.

Good luck you are welcome to email me if you have any queries.
regards Roy
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #6 on: June 29, 2012, 11:34:08 AM »

Thanks again Roy.

I cant wait to get started with the build, but it seems that there is something wrong with the store(hobbydirekt) where I ordered it from. The boat has been in "shipping department" status 3 days now.   I just sent the store  email to see what is going on.
(usually I get stuff from Germany to Finland in 3-4 days, so this does not look good)

The boat,motors,glue and caps were in stock (now the boat is out of stock) at the time I bought them so no idea why the delay.

The boat was alot cheaper there then other places(229€ there,  cornwall,and other places wants 350€ for it).

But I´m not that worried yet, will see if something happens next week, if not then it´s time to ask paypal to the rescue...

-Pate
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #7 on: June 29, 2012, 12:25:52 PM »

I use hobbydireckt regularly and they can be a bit slow to ship at times, but always come through with the goods
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2012, 08:09:03 PM »

Hi essex2visuvesi , did you get my pm?(3rd one, I asked you about hobbydirekt shipping)

I have ordered 30min clear epoxy(to coat the wood parts) ,thick CA(it may become handy),wires,plugs,shrink tubing,etc small items.



Will order the esc next week, and pick up some clamps to help with the gluing  process.


I dont know would the motors need watercooling, if so I will grab some brass tubing and make some cooling coils.
(thinking that 7A per motor cant make them that hot... ? ) It has been so long since I have used brushed motors...


-do you guys know how many hours these motors usually last?   -allready thinking of getting some nice brushless outrunners(like I have on my navaho http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=30702.0  )

-but brushed has so nice throttle feel compared to brushless sensorless motors that if they last a while I will use the brushed.

-Pate
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2012, 09:23:39 AM »

Yes I did sorry.... could have thought I replied... must be one of those erm senior moments. I have only used Hobbydirekt through their ebay shop
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2012, 09:40:07 AM »

Thanks, and no worries,just glad to hear you have had luck with hobbydirekt, googled a bit and not every1 has been that lucky.

anyways, just got order update from them, "waiting for article "  -great... every part was in stock when I placed the order  >>:-(

-Will wait a bit and hope everything will be fine, I just want to start with the build so bad cause the build plans have changed:  -the friend who asked me to build this backed out
(he just bought a house and asked would I like to have the boat) .

So long story short it is my boat now and cant wait to build it my style.

-Pate
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2012, 09:43:37 AM »

Just noticed you are in Finalnd as well? where abouts are you? Im about 150Kms north of Tampere

Hobbypeople are pretty good if a little expensive.  Quite often it is cheaper to buy from Germany even with the extra postage.
I was quite suprised when I moved here that there are not that many model boaters here considering the amount of water available
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2012, 09:50:14 AM »

Hi, I live in Helsinki.

My family has a summer cabin  in Sipoo(~15km from Helsinki) ,and I keep and drive my boats there.

-Pate
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2012, 10:49:06 AM »

A esc question for all, are robbe esc´s any good?  -I can get new NAVY CONTROL 535 R esc for 40€

- Speed controllers features:

    Weight: 62 g
    Measures: 65 x 39 x 18.5 mm
    Operating voltage: 6 - 17 V
    Current: 35 A

and this is what the manufacturer say:

Full forward / reverse control with high resolution, excluding unnecessary brake function. Expanded controller neutral point with pre-programmed non-linear control curve for finer control when manoeuvring. The 1000 Hz pulse frequency avoids motor damage and gives a smooth motor start. Galvanic separation (OPTO) between motor and receiver power circuit prevents interference to the receiving system from brush sparking. The integral ´Rx-Filter´ active interference suppression system shields the receiver from motor interference and suppresses invalid signals. With power-on guard and thermal overload protection. Simple to adjust the speed controller using the ´eps´ easy programming system. With integral water cooling system for long operating times at high load currents. Can also be used without water cooling; maximum continuous current is then reduced to 25 A. Sealed with acrylic lacquer to protect from splash damage.

This should be good, right?  -35Amp is enough,without watercooling it is rated 25A, and that should also be enough.

The price is ok, it is close to 80€ retail so if it is good I´ll take it.

The 17v voltage is also good, then I can use up to 4s lipos if needed. (the sidewinder I first was concidering is 12v max)

-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2012, 10:53:12 AM »

I have a robbe rookie ESC in my sons white star.... seems to be pretty good
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2012, 11:03:02 AM »

Thanks!

Also got reply from hobbydirekt to my question about the delay:  "Speed 600 will arrive today and everything will be shipped together"

So they must have been out of stock one motor and alls well.  

-Atleast I´m hoping O0

-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2012, 09:05:59 PM »

Hello fastvee, I will send you scans as soon as I have done them.
regards Roy
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2012, 10:41:48 AM »

Thanks Roy, I cant wait!

Just also got the waited "shipped" email, hopefully I can start with the build next weekend  ;)

-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2012, 12:44:58 PM »

HI Fastvee, I have sent you 4 emails with 11 pages of content.
Good luck with the build.
regards Roy
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2012, 06:08:39 PM »

Roy, thanks alot for your efford.

The articke will be fun to read.



and just got 2 emails from the store, both included tracking number(s) for the boat... -one for GLS and another for DHL...weird.

-Pate
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2012, 08:45:41 PM »

Just update of the parts ordered:

Castle sidewinder esc with fan(the robbe one I was getting at first was reported not to be great with lipos)

5000mAh 3s lipo

Cooling coils for the motors

2xGundert water pickup for cooling the motors(they are great, used in few of my fe builds)

Silicon cooling tubing

14 and 16awg wires.


I want really long run times so if I can fit 2 lipos in then it will have 10.000mAh capacity. -any idea how large the battery space is on this?



Roy, the article is really handy, more I read the more I learn.  -Like you wrote that the motors got hot after running them for a while.  Now I know they are going to get hot so they needed cooling.  -I now have the cooling components for them.


I hope the hull can accept 2 of these pickup/outlet thingys, and they can be glued to the hull well.(never really liked abs, I have just build fiberglass boats )
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2012, 11:56:03 AM »

DHL just delivered  the boat.  -almost as big of a package as my losi 5ive-t is! -so it is massive.

The hull is rather thin, maybe reinforcement with fiberglass is needed for some parts, will see.

As I wrote b4, this is going to be civillian vessel, so no fire monitor this time. -and maybe the crane wont be installed eighter, I need space for the table and seats for aft deck.

Damn the instructions are not in a book type manual with pictures for dummies, but huge sheets of paper, I dont have the space to lay them on...  -thank god there is also english instructions, I would never be able to build this without written instructions at language I can understand.(well, I can barely write and read English, but much better then german...)



Anyway....This is going to be a LOONG build.  %)



Will start build next sunday, but I have few questions for you smarter people out there:

-Gluing the plywood to abs hull what cleaner is safe to use b4 gluing?  -acetone melst abs right? -so that is too strong?. -fast wipes?

Is just washing the hull and scuffing the hull where  glue goes enough?






Pate
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 12:32:39 PM »

If you need any help in translating the instructions, give me a PM... between my wife and I we should be able to get something that makes sense lol
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fastvee

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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 02:09:07 PM »

Thanks!

-just went through the parts and found out that the railings and  stanchions are not included in the kit!

-they are in that 150€ fittings set  <*< >>:-(  -great.

I dont want to pay that much for the railings since That is the only part I need from that set.

Railing is not a priority atm, not even started with the build, but I think there is cheaper sollution to this.

-I have never worked with brass, -other then annealing and bend it for stuffing tubes, looks like I´m going to learn drilling and soldering railings from brass tube soon...
(and do my own look to them, no box art needed here).






-Pate
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Re: Graupner Bremen 9 ,my first kit build and help is appreciated
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2012, 10:08:12 PM »

Have a look here:-
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/40.html

Also if you look on hobby peoples website they have the billing stanchions
http://www.hobbypeople.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=34_161_218&products_id=16855&zenid=cc32a1408448af4081a97e77d59cd202

I just hop thats not the price for 1!  :o
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