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Author Topic: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?  (Read 14704 times)

Artistmike

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I was given this old hull some time ago with a view to restoration but have always thought of it as a bit of a big job and almost forgot about it.  However I think I'm now in the right frame of mind to give it a go, I realise it's going to be a bit of a long job and during it would be grateful of any advice from anyone who has attempted the same sort of restoration...  :-)

I believe it's an old 36R class boat from it's length of 36 inches and it's other dimensions and the original mast is some 53 inches high. The hull seems very sound indeed though the keel weight obviously became detached at some time but it's been well made so my first job will be to remove the deck by drilling out old screws that won't unscrew, nails etc and then get at the insides to see what needs doing, before I start the hard work.

I may well restore it as original as possible, if I can find enough details and parts, and complement that with optional radio control.  Anyway, day one.... as I say I won't be rushing it but hopefully will end up with a nice working pond yacht when it's finished.  :D





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tony52

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2012, 07:28:17 PM »

The Vintage Model Yacht Group may be a source of information.

http://www.vmyg.org.uk/
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2012, 08:35:16 PM »

The Vintage Model Yacht Group may be a source of information.
http://www.vmyg.org.uk/

Yes, I've already dropped an e-mail to Russell Potts and he's kindly passed on a bit of information but like many of these early models, it's difficult to track down it's pedigree though he pointed me in the direction of a 36 Restricted class model called Babette by W.J Daniels, which he feels is similar . Still, I'll plod on through with the restoration process. The hull is in great condition so I've a good base to start from and I'll get a suit of sails made later as I don't trust my sewing skills.  :embarrassed: 

I need also to source some nice brass fittings, so I've got to start on a list of bits and pieces that I need to get it looking right.... It should be nice when it's finished though..... however long that may take.  :D
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tony52

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2012, 07:56:34 AM »

Seeing the quadrant in the photographs, was a braine steering system used? Are your restoration plans for braine, vane or r/c.

Good luck with the restoration, please keep us updated with progress.

Tony.
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #4 on: July 15, 2012, 12:27:13 PM »

Seeing the quadrant in the photographs, was a braine steering system used? Are your restoration plans for braine, vane or r/c.
Tony.

Yes, originally presumably it must have had Braine gear as the quadrant is there, so what I'm hoping is to get a new working Braine system going on it but also install some covert R/C to make life easier, even if it's only a simple assisted steering system but I'll see how I go as I go along and find out how easy it is to source original style parts for it.   ... I want it to look as original as I possibly can but at my age I'm too old to go running around the lake after an errant Braine system so some R/C will hopefully sort that out !  :embarrassed:

I'll post some photos as I go along but I'm more than happy to accept any advice as it's the first time I've restored anything like this.....  :D
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tony52

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2012, 02:38:44 PM »

Some years ago I built and fitted a vane steering system to a Marblehead yacht and you are quite right in saying that you will need to be fit to go running around the lake. At the more mature years in life this is big consideration. I also noticed with the vane, is the social side is missed out on, whilst everyone is having a cup of tea and putting the world to right, you are practicing for the 100 metre sprint!

Whatever system you choose once again good luck with the project. The 36R was always a good manageable class.
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #6 on: July 31, 2012, 04:43:47 PM »

I'm pleased that I made the decision not to chemically strip all the old paint off the hull, but rather to spend a week using a Stanley knife scraper to remove what appeared to be a few layers of Dulux or similar plastic type paint !

What I've managed to find underneath is two things, the truly original hull colours of Green and Cream/White and even more importantly, the correct waterline, which was a real bonus as it will be very easy to mask to this line when re-painting.  That's now saved the decision of what colours to paint and I shall now do some gentle filling in of imperfections to get the hull nice and smooth before the next stage.....


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Nordsee

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 11:34:27 AM »

What a lovely Project! I think these old hulls were so graceful, my new Club is purely Racing, IOM and Marbleheads and is speed at any price! Still they have a nice water only 10 minutes away and they are friendly enough, when not racing that is!!
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 12:11:53 PM »

What a lovely Project! I think these old hulls were so graceful, my new Club is purely Racing, IOM and Marbleheads and is speed at any price! Still they have a nice water only 10 minutes away and they are friendly enough, when not racing that is!!

Funnily enough I changed clubs precisely for that reason. My old club were IOM racers and if you took anything else to the water and didn't race, you were rather regarded as somewhat weird ! Of course racing has it's place but not at the expense of everything else as far as I'm concerned so I've moved over to a more sedate bunch, in another club, who have every sort of boat imaginable and I can just cruise my yachts around.  There's a few of us have Micro-Magics so we do occasionally have a few races around the buoys but it's not cut-throat and done just for fun.  %%
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2012, 10:58:47 AM »

Slowly but surely I'm almost to the stage where the hull is ready for final detailed filling and sanding, prior to starting the painting process. I had to repair the keel fin and then re-attach the lead weight, which weighs in at 6lbs. The original screws were used for this as they were long brass ones and are in lovely condition. The fin at the top where it joined the hull and bottom where it meets the lead were faired using filler to get a nice smooth streamlined profile.



The rudder post had failed due to fatigue, by the looks of things, so using the original rudder I had to construct a new unit out of a variety of brass tubes and rod, fixed to the rudder as per the original by drilling through the brass. It seems to have come out a very solid job, rotating at the bottom on a brass pintle which allows the whole rudder to be lifted a little and removed, if necessary and with the deck on and old quadrant attached it seems to work fine. Designing an RC link to it, that is not to obvious, will be a job for when I'm ready to put the deck back on..... .  All going well so far then, if a little slowly, but I'm in no rush.. :-)

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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2012, 02:16:01 PM »

Oh, and the lead weight is secured by three large screws which, as I said, screw vertically into the wood of the fin. The lead weight has these holes countersunk by about three quarters of an inch so in order for these not to be obvious on the finished build, I made wooden dowels to fill the holes left, after I had inserted the screws and these were then covered with a small surface of filler.

The aim of this is to make it easier for anyone attempting restoration in the future to remove the lead. I shall make a note of this, along with other build notes, in a small laminated document left in the hull, which should hopefully last till then and be of help to anyone doing the work. That is, if it doesn't sink in the meantime !  :-)
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Stavros

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2012, 10:59:30 PM »

looks good nice one


Dave
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mrpenguin

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2012, 12:54:24 AM »

@ArtistMike:

Nice work on the rudder repair - looks really good.

Thinking that it would pay to check that the rudder tube through the hull is intact and waterproof as well while in that area.

You mention that the rudder can lift off the pintle, presumably meaning there is a bit of slap in the rudder shaft - should not be a problem if the rudder tube is continuous through the hull.

However does this mean that the rudder could lift off while sailing? There may be times during sailing when the rudder experiences some upward thrust.... if it came out of the pintle while at sea things could get ugly... :((
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2012, 07:27:05 AM »

@ArtistMike:

Thinking that it would pay to check that the rudder tube through the hull is intact and waterproof as well while in that area.
You mention that the rudder can lift off the pintle, presumably meaning there is a bit of slap in the rudder shaft - should not be a problem if the rudder tube is continuous through the hull.
However does this mean that the rudder could lift off while sailing? There may be times during sailing when the rudder experiences some upward thrust.... if it came out of the pintle while at sea things could get ugly... :((

Yes the deck is off at the moment and that's enabled me to work inside the hull.  The original rudder tube was in very good condition, so it was carefully removed, checked, the small pin fixing it to the bottom of the hull replaced and then I used a small amount of Isopon to bond the tube in place to the bottom of the hull, which has the added benefit of completely waterproofing it. 

Funnily enough, I thought about exactly what you said about the rudder lifting when sailing. I've re-made the pintle arrangement so that to remove the rudder it has to be lifted right up and then the tube only just clears it to be removed, it's tight and takes some care to remove it so I'm hoping that won't happen by accident and the weight of the brass rod and quadrant should help. As it's copying faithfully the original way it was made I've got my fingers crossed that it will be enough to make sure nothing happens but if I do get problems, I may have to have a re-think. :-)
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roycv

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2012, 10:57:19 AM »

Hi interesting thread and my favourite pastime.  The last few of yachts I have done over, I mounted the pintle on a bracket that screws vertically  into the keel, that way the rudder can be dropped in the usual way.  I have in the past used a brass screw as the pintle, using a nut on a bracket and another to lock it in place.  If the keel is metal at this point then bury a nut and use machine screws.

As far as RC operation of the rudder goes, with the various lines and elastic going to the Braine quadrant a couple more lines to the quadrant won't notice going to a servo.  The lines can be taken in through tubes into a deck hatch or via tubes mounted on deck.  I used curved tubes instead of pulleys, cheaper too!  Never had any wear on the tubes either even with monofilament line.

The rudder servo lines can be hooked into the holes in the quadrant at the working end easily disconnected when not needed.
very interesting look forward to the continuing saga.
regards Roy
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #15 on: August 19, 2012, 11:26:54 AM »

As far as RC operation of the rudder goes, with the various lines and elastic going to the Braine quadrant a couple more lines to the quadrant won't notice going to a servo.  The lines can be taken in through tubes into a deck hatch or via tubes mounted on deck.  I used curved tubes instead of pulleys, cheaper too!  Never had any wear on the tubes either even with monofilament line.

The rudder servo lines can be hooked into the holes in the quadrant at the working end easily disconnected when not needed.
very interesting look forward to the continuing saga.
regards Roy

Cheers Roy, that's just the sort of system that I'm hoping to build on mine. I'm still deciding where I'm going to put the lines at the moment. I've a spare Hitec drum winch that will do nicely for the sails and I want to put that, plus the steering servo just under the existing hatch and I'm hoping that I can access those, plus the batteries, without having to open up the deck any more as I want to keep that original. Also the deck will be screwed back in place so there will be no other access point when everything is installed, unless it's an emergency.... decisions decisions!  {:-{

I still have to try to find some suitable missing parts for the Braine system too, that or make them, so there's still plenty to be done...... I'm also still trying to work out whether these holes on the fore part of the deck were there for a Jib Rack or for bands to hold down a small bowsprit.... It's difficult to know to be honest and either way, the parts aren't there to identify it either way.....

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mrpenguin

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #16 on: August 19, 2012, 01:23:30 PM »

@ArtistMike:

I am guessing the foredeck holes in pairs (circled in green) may be for a bowsprit.
The hole circled in red is more likely location for jib attachment point I would think.
Hole at bow tip (yellow circle) may be for a forestay?

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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #17 on: August 19, 2012, 01:57:34 PM »

I am guessing the foredeck holes in pairs (circled in green) may be for a bowsprit.
The hole circled in red is more likely location for jib attachment point I would think.
Hole at bow tip (yellow circle) may be for a forestay?


I think the hole in red is just that bit too far back to be for the jib attachment, to be honest and the one in yellow could have just been one of the deck screws........ which leaves me back with a bowsprit or jib rack, or... just possibly .. something similar to this Bassett-Lowke Endeavour model which had twin jibs......   All very difficult but the more I look the more I'm thinking bowsprit which most boats of this age had, albeit short ones.  The mast I do have and that just shouts sloop rig ... not easy making these sorts of decisions with so little to go on really..  :(( ... god fun though  :D

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roycv

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #18 on: August 19, 2012, 05:17:12 PM »

Hi don't mean to be pushy but does this picture of the Braine diagram help?
regards Roy
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2012, 06:04:22 PM »

Hi don't mean to be pushy but does this picture of the Braine diagram help?
regards Roy

All help very gratefully received but yes, I have that picture plus a few photos of working ones, I just need to find out where I can buy parts, like the pin-rack, or work out how to make one.  %% .... :-)
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2012, 11:29:40 AM »

I knocked up a quick stand for the yacht and while I was at it assembled all the parts I have so far to see what she looks like. I'm fairly convinced now that she had a bowsprit so I added a piece of dowel to what looked like the right proportions just to see how it looks. As you can see from the mast height, she's going to carry a fair bit of sail too !  :-)


Pond Yacht 9 by Artistmike, on Flickr


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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #21 on: August 27, 2012, 12:48:34 PM »

Hi Artistmike, the Braine steering is just a trimming system as you know.  I don't think you will have much rudder control under RC when the wind gets up.  It is worth making a bigger rudder but not much bigger, when she is heeled over the rudder is more like the elevator on an aircraft.

36's usually had 3 sets of sails in competition so that they could sail in the most efficient way, which is upright.
I have a yacht of similar size so just passing on my observations, hope they help.

good luck, I do feel a bit jealous!

regards Roy
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #22 on: August 27, 2012, 01:56:09 PM »

Cheers Roy

Yes, it's all a bit 'suck it and see' with this one as I've only got the hull and mast to go on, so not even a sail plan but it's going to be fun...  :-)   . When it's in a sail-able condition, if I find the rudder is insufficient it will be quite easy to try different sizes and shapes to see what suits it best, now that I've made it fully de-mountable.  I'm hoping though that the original builder has sorted out that problem and this one does it's job... fingers crossed !

I'm used to racing my IOM so the multiple suits of sails thing I'm used to, but this boat, due to it's stately age, which due to its design must be somewhere in the region of 100 yrs old, will probably end up as just a light airs cruiser for my club water, to be used just on high days and holidays and the rest of the time a bit of a show-piece.. Mind you having said that it's of very solid construction, being Bread and Butter, so I've no doubt if I do the job properly it will go on sailing another 100 years....  :-)
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roycv

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #23 on: August 27, 2012, 04:18:57 PM »

Hi AM, the 36 class dates from 1929 and the Braine rudder control from 1904. So you are getting there!  I would not bet on the original builder having sorted out the problems!

I have an old yacht in need of TLC and probably 100 + years old. (woodscrew plank on frame). The comment from the VMYG was that as it was in very good condition, probably put away in a loft, because it was not competitive so had been put to one side!

regards Roy
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Artistmike

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Re: Restoration of an old yacht, possibly 36R of pond yacht pedigree..?
« Reply #24 on: August 27, 2012, 05:09:25 PM »

What's what's interesting about this one. The rudder design is early, most of the early 36R yachts that you see have the later separate rudder, mounted vertically , slightly aft of the keel. This design definitely harks back to earlier pond yacht designs, but with Braine gear , yet it conforms to the 36R rule as far as size of hull is concerned although the hull again has the lovely overhangs fore and aft so typical of earlier designs. All very strange ....  %%

It's a fascinating boat to be working with though and as you say, the builder may have been learning as he went along ! :-)

So when are you restoring your one? And have you got any photos?
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