Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: So Whose Run Brushless And in What  (Read 6231 times)

debssnal

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 244
  • Location: kent
    • http://www.ateamboatyard.co.uk/
So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« on: April 09, 2012, 04:44:01 PM »

Hi Everyone,
So whose is running brushless motors and in what.With motors esc's and lipo batterys coming down in price.
There is now compatibie pricing for brushless motors and esc's.
I have just fitted them to my new Tamar Lifeboat. (Modelslipway)
2x XYH35-48 1100kv Brushless outrunner   14.14 each from Giantcod..............brushed Motors would be 2x Graupner Speed 600 Eco Pt No 3323  11.49 each.
2x BDUS 50A Water Cooling Brushless ESC with Reverse 16.49 each from ebay.........ESC's 2x.Mtronik Tio Marine15 25.99 or Mtronik Viper 15 Marine 19.99 each
3x ZIPPY Flightmax 5000mAh 2S1P 20C Lipo  11.07 each from Hoobyking (germany)........Batterys7.2v 4200mAh NiMH battery pack 19.98 each
So with more power,better efficiency it looks the way to go.I run one battery on each motor,and one on the bow thruste.
Here is a video of the Tamar.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EieIFfZZsgU

regards
Alan
 
 
Logged

6705russell

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1,233
  • Model Boat Mayhem Forum is the Best!
  • Location: Staffordshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2012, 05:31:06 PM »

Alan

I used two of the BDUS speed controllers, all out max speed current of the vessel was 26amps and the controllers managed two outings before they went pop....

Russ
Logged

CF-FZG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Oxfordshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2012, 08:22:13 PM »

I get a very big impression that there's a lot of guesswork going on selecting ESCs for BL motors - for brushed there's a wealth of experience that can help when you ask what ESC for mm motor, vv voltage, and zz prop size.  However when it comes to BL, it appears to me that most people just put the highest rated ESC they can find to match the motor max current draw.

What needs to be done is to start measuring the current draw at w.o.t. when the vessel is static - this will tell you what size ESC to use, (i.e. max current draw rounded up by 50%, or 200% if using chinese amps), and start putting these in a thread dedicated to holding this sort of data.

Fregzample - just put what motor, voltage, prop, and max amp draw - repeat for other props/batteries, (e.g. 2S LiPo or 8.4v Nixx or 12v SLA), I'm sure you get the impression.

What would also be useful, would be to put what brushed setup is also recommended, such as the eco600's mentioned for the MS Tamar.  So that someone looking for a BL setup for a boat could find the recommended brushed setup and look up it's BL equivalent :-))


Mark.

NB - There's a program that's been used for years by aeromodellers that will give all sorts of recommendations based on model type and size , (including prop size, motor size, ESC rating and battery voltage) - a version for model boats is being developed :-))
Logged
Mark.

Tonka Toys - Big boys toys :)

Andyn

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 690
  • Location: UK
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2012, 08:24:09 PM »

It'll be nice when the boating world starts to catch up with the flying world. Unfortunately, by then the flyers would have moved onto somthing else....  %)
Logged

CF-FZG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Oxfordshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2012, 08:52:52 PM »

It'll be nice when the boating world starts to catch up with the flying world. Unfortunately, by then the flyers would have moved onto somthing else....  %)

Andy,

My first experience of BL motors was in '97 when we had a RipMax display at the local club and a powered glider was running BL on 30 NiCd cells - jeeeez it went like the smnelly stuff off a shovel O0

Then I see threads like this where an eco600 brushed motor, (at what, 25A max draw {:-{), or around 280watts - is being replaced with a 600 size BL motor, (of which I have an early one rated at 1.5+ Kw :o)  through ignorance of just how powerful BL can be compared with brushed - when a much smaller/lower powered motor can be used and still pull less current for the same/similar voltage.


Mark.
Logged
Mark.

Tonka Toys - Big boys toys :)

kinmel

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
  • Colwyn Bay M.B.C.
  • Location: Conwy, in sunny north Wales
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 08:53:07 PM »

I have converted my 1/16th MS Tamar to brushless after running with the recommended 600 motors with 9.6v NIMH's

two GiantCod 35-36 1050Kv 25a brushless motors
two  Hobbyking 30amp car esc's
two  Zippy 8000 3s 30C Lipo batteries.

chosen really because of stock availability and a wish to learn.


The result can be seen here..............     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl1KRUnR1nY&feature=youtu.be

The outcome is certainly well over scale speed and the hull leans to the left simply because of the torque differences between the motors at full speed.

 The 3s cells are a poor choice and I will have to change to 2s Lipos in the near future.
Logged

Andyn

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 690
  • Location: UK
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 09:05:14 PM »

My first experience of BL motors was in '97 when we had a RipMax display at the local club and a powered glider was running BL on 30 NiCd cells - jeeeez it went like the smnelly stuff off a shovel O0

Exactly, mine was about 7 years ago, when someone had one on a rainbow trainer, tht went a lot faster than he expected it to...

I still can't believe how so many boaters get excited over my old hat DSM2 DX6i, or why people were intrigued the other day as to why I'm running my starter off a Li-Po %)
Logged

CF-FZG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Oxfordshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 09:24:51 PM »

I have converted my 1/16th MS Tamar to brushless after running with the recommended 600 motors with 9.6v NIMH's

two GiantCod 35-36 1050Kv 25a brushless motors
two  Hobbyking 30amp car esc's
two  Zippy 8000 3s 30C Lipo batteries.

This is a better choice of motor, (although obsolete), than the 35-48 in the OP as a replacement for the eco600.  In fact the latest turnigy 35-36A-910kv is even better as it's slightly slower, and it's 350w against 400w.

Agreed, 2S would probably be better.

What size prop are you running Kinmel?? - same question for debssnal  too please :-))


Mark.
Logged
Mark.

Tonka Toys - Big boys toys :)

debssnal

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 244
  • Location: kent
    • http://www.ateamboatyard.co.uk/
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 09:28:31 PM »

Hi Everyone,
This how i came to pick the motors for the Tamar.
Modelslipway say the Graupner 600 eco is the motor for the boat.
Graupner 600 eco.... Normal voltage 7.2v......no load 11000rpm......Max efficiency 72%
You would be luck to get 7000rpm out the Graupner 600 eco on the water at full power.
So i had a look at a lot of brushless motors and as i have always done in the past i when for over size.
This way you dont pull lodes of amps so keeping it running efficiently=long running time.
After running the Tamar for 30 mins i pulled it out of the water,and the motors were cold,and amp meter showed it pull a max of 5.6amps.  
No heat max efficiency.
So the XYH 35-48/04   600watt  1100kv   at 7.4 volts lipo=8140rpm.
More than enough speed,and well over power for this model.
I would say go bigger than you need with the motor,and keep the kv down.

regards
Alan
Logged

debssnal

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 244
  • Location: kent
    • http://www.ateamboatyard.co.uk/
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 09:50:58 PM »

Hi Mark,
I am running 40mm four bladed standard of the shelf props.
Here are some of my past brushless powered model.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn2QxbhaJUs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTR5g_jO7sk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xto1Lrca56A

regards
Alan
Logged

kinmel

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
  • Colwyn Bay M.B.C.
  • Location: Conwy, in sunny north Wales
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2012, 10:23:04 PM »


What size prop are you running Kinmel?? - same question for debssnal  too please :-))


Mark.

Hi Mark I am running on a pair of 40mm 3 bladed brass props.  I did try the brushed motors with 5 bladed brass as per the real Tamar, but the boat was very slow. The 3 bladed are a direct replacement for the plastic props that came with the kit.

 I might give the 5 bladed a try with the brushless set up and see how that pans out.
Logged

nick_75au

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 257
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia
    • Logan City Marine Modellers
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 08:11:21 AM »

Started with a Springer with a KA22-20 1000 Kv motor, 40 mm prop 6 volt Pulso reversing speed control
Glynn Guests Miami Crashboat with a KA450 3200 Kv  on a 3:1 gear box, 35 mm race prop 11.1 volt Air/Helo  fwd only controller
Axebow 1300 mm long two DT-750 45 mm 5 blade on 11.1 volt, two 30 amp Turnigy car controllers
Skiboat, 36-42 Turnigy 1250 Kv 40 mm prop 11.1 volt 100 amp controller with reverse
Riva Corsero 36-45 500 Kv on 22.2 volt 48mm prop needs smaller prop, too much torque roll for this narrow hull 80 amp Turnigy with reverse
Airboat with DT700 11*4.7 air prop 11.1 volt Air forward only
Couple of others thrown the above motors in to experiment

Ive thrown together a few setups for other club members as well ;)

Cheers
Nick
Logged

Subculture

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3,910
  • Location: North London
    • Dive-in to Model submarines
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 10:03:59 AM »

There are a couple of things hindering the acceptance of brushless motors into the scale model boating world. One is the poor availability of motors with very low KV ratings in smaller can sizes. Robbe have recently wheeled out a couple of motors with 35mm can sizes and 300 and 500kv ratings, but they're quite pricey. The other factor is a lack of inexpensive revrsible controllers- Hobbyking are supplying a range at very competitive prices, although I've yet to try one, so not sure what the quality is like. Feedback from other purchasers appears to be very positive though.

Also it's worth pointing out that very high quality brushed motors still take some beating. Buhler, Maxon, Portescap etc. generally multi-pole skew wound armatures, ballraced and wound for low speed high torque, some even have coreless stators- all ideal qualities, and coupled with a decent ESC the speed control characteristics are much better than sensorless brushless. They can be picked up very cheaply on the surplus market, and they'll last a lifetime in a model.

When it comes to stand off scale and sport models, I'd say brushless everytime. For scale models though, I think the range of motors and controllers needs to be improved further, which I'm sure it will in time.

CF-FZG

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 235
  • Location: Oxfordshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 06:59:50 PM »

For those running fast electric, I've found a calculator called FE Calc -  please note that this is designed for serious racers, (some of the motors and ESCs are well into 3 figures)

Ecalc has just gone beta with the car/truck version - boats next :-))


Mark.
Logged
Mark.

Tonka Toys - Big boys toys :)

tsenecal

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 331
  • Location: Arvada, Colorado, USA
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 06:33:04 AM »

everything i own is now using brushless.

5 model subs  (Alvin, Delta, Type II, Holland, Blueback)
1 hovercraft
4 fast electrics (2 dumas DV10, 2 MRP tunnel Hulls)
6 scale boats (Mr. Darby, Shelly Foss, Lobster boat, PT Boat, 41' USCG UTB, Colin Archer)
3 jetboats (16" hull, graupner mini jetpump)

i use a variety of electric motors, and a variety of ESC, mostly Castle Creations sidewinder micro 1/18.  I do have two sensored rock crawler ESCs and motors in the Delta and Holland.   I too have used FE Calc, primarily on the two MRP tunnel hulls to figure combos of motor/ESC/battery/Prop that give the best efficiencies.

I prefer to use higher quality motors such as Himaxx, Axi and LRP, but have put inexpensive brands like eflite and turnigy in as well.  I find that the ESCs and motors don't last long regardless of brand or quality in the FE boats, so it is easier on the wallet to use the less expensive chinese ones in those boats, and the higher quality ones in the scale boats where low rpm usage is better served.  i definitely find that the cogging issues in brushless motors are reduced by using the higher quality motors like himaxx and axi.
Logged

debssnal

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 244
  • Location: kent
    • http://www.ateamboatyard.co.uk/
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2012, 08:32:01 PM »

Hi Everyone,Had one of the younger club member around this weekend to help him fit brurhless motors to his 1:12 Arun.
Motors fitted 2x Emax BL 4020  520kv    @ 26.51 each from Giantcod.
ESC,s fitted  2x  Hobbyking SS Boat Series 70A ESC  plug and play  (per set up for you ) @ 15.49 from Hobbyking.
Battery 2x 12volt 7ah gell cell.
Running time now 1hour 15 mins.
On the old set up thats was 2x Graupner 900.
Running time on old set up 25 to 30 mins.
So well over 100% more running time,and a bit more faster.
Here is a video link of the Arun running today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmSJ1V7bK1A




regards
Alan
Logged

triumphjon

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 790
  • Location: portsmouth , hampshire
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2012, 08:38:48 AM »

im slowly changing over to them , we first tried a pair in an old veron vosper patrol boat , the boat has now been sold to kk , but the motors are in my fairey spear along with a pair of 11.1v lipos , performance is reasonable scale speed , & im getting over 30 mins of running time too ! im also im the process of building a jetpump driven dory with a 1050 brushless motor .
Logged

kinmel

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 658
  • Colwyn Bay M.B.C.
  • Location: Conwy, in sunny north Wales
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2012, 05:56:46 PM »

I have converted my 1/16th MS Tamar to brushless after running with the recommended 600 motors with 9.6v NIMH's

two GiantCod 35-36 1050Kv 25a brushless motors
two  Hobbyking 30amp car esc's
two  Zippy 8000 3s 30C Lipo batteries.

chosen really because of stock availability and a wish to learn.


The result can be seen here..............     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fl1KRUnR1nY&feature=youtu.be

The outcome is certainly well over scale speed and the hull leans to the left simply because of the torque differences between the motors at full speed.

 The 3s cells are a poor choice and I will have to change to 2s Lipos in the near future.

I am now running on 2S LIPOs and with these the boat is  much closer to scale speed, with great acceleration.   

 The 3S LIPOs are more fun though  :}
Logged

malcolmfrary

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 5,568
  • Location: Blackpool, Lancs, UK
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2012, 09:46:18 PM »

Quote
What needs to be done is to start measuring the current draw at w.o.t. when the vessel is static - this will tell you what size ESC to use, (i.e. max current draw rounded up by 50%, or 200% if using chinese amps), and start putting these in a thread dedicated to holding this sort of data.
If starting from scratch, the big problem is that with a brushed motor, you can try things without an ESC, measuring current or blowing fuses, in water and out, to get some idea of the rating required.  Since brushless cannot be run without an appropriate ESC, (said ESC being essentially part of the motor) the only way is to get a bulletproof one in the first place in order to do the testing/measuring.
Logged
"With the right tool, you can break anything" - Garfield

Capitaine LaGaffe

  • Shipmate
  • *
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 17
Re: So Whose Run Brushless And in What
« Reply #19 on: August 07, 2012, 07:13:29 PM »

Late to the thread:

Tug 1: Two Hyperion ZS-2213-22 862Kv outrunners with Hype AlphaCar 35A SL (HobbyWing eZRun-35A) car ESCs in rock crawler mode. Draws about 2.5A per motor at full throttle (expected a lot more). Four 4100mAh 3S LiFe ack packs in parallel. Works OK.

Tug 2: Brushless Graupner VSPs with Jeti Advance 18 Pro (aircraft) ESCs. Four 4100 mAh 4S LiFe ack packs in parallel. Yet to be tested due to weird goings on when the Rx is switched on (the servos doing a synchronized merry dance breaking things).

/tm
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up