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[polaris]

Dear All,

Does anyone know anything about this??? - and what it actually was?

Regards, Bernard

[TailUK]

There was a patent application by an F.W. Richardson in America for something like this.  Details: http://www.google.com/patents/US498572

The was also H.M.S. Waterwitch which was a turbine driven waterjet.

[Norseman]

Hi Bernard

http://www.cityofart.net/bship/hms_water-witch.html

there are a few links right at the end too

Dave

[furball]

Richardson designed several tubular lifeboats for the R.N.L.I. In the second half of the 19th century, they were all propelled by oars however.

Lance

[Umi_Ryuzuki]

How about tubular, no screw, propulsion...

Mitsubishi Yamato 1 magnetohydrodynamic drive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

 

[TailUK]

How about tubular, no screw, propulsion...

Mitsubishi Yamato 1 magnetohydrodynamic drive
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_1

 

Isn't this what was supposed to drive the Red October of book and film fame?

[polaris]

Dear All,

Thankyou for solving the matter!

The 'screw' being a part of the 'jet', but slightly missleading in the Co. title.

Magnetohydrodynamics. A fascinating concept... the only part of this tech. I am familiar with (& use on machines), is for fuel treatment.

Thankyou all for making clear the title of the above Co.

Regards, Bernard

[Bowwave]

As a point of general interest   a feature article appeared in   the Model Boats magazine {Range Finder ] March 1998  detailing the early development of hydraulic   drive . with accompanying drawing and pictures of the ships and engineering . Les Jones from Holyhead  developed a working model of the RNLB Duke of Northumberland using amidships propulsion hydraulic drive with the same principles of the original 1866 centrifugal  pump system . a truly fascinating model that works very well indeed.   
Bowwave

[polaris]

Dear Bowwave,

Thankyou for that. Just a quick note.......

The concept of the mid to late 1800's was actually way ahead of it's time in many respects.  I suppose the nearest modern equivalent is/ are the Pod drives on some specialist vessels... granted not quite the same, but the principal is there. Likewise waterjet tech. is within this early tech., not to mention bow thrusters of course.

Bearing in mind the early developers were working with steam power, makes the concept even more succinct... what could they have done had they had the prime movers of this age! - similar can be said of the Romans and Greeks', who's tech. once the Empires fell, went into decline for a long while. But we mustn't forget China, where tech. was constantly advancing... their prowess continues to the present day of course, and I do not forget certain techs. that have been 'borrowed' from the West to advance their tech. advance!

Magnetohydrodynamics was being applied/successfully tested in/with fishing vessel engine fuel treatment in Canada in the 1920's, but the tech. had been known about long before that, as to 'drives', well, the tech. to effectively apply the principal still needs to advance a bit. MHD 'Caterpillar drive' is feasible but much R&D is needed to make it what it can be.

Regards, Bernard

[Bowwave]

Hello Barnard the one curious development of the 1866--67 experiments with hydraulic drive is that it was never intended as the primary propulsion. It was seen as a secondary manoeuvring drive for sail powered warship and   with that the original experiments where compromised even     before they got underway.   Admiral Belcher and Vice Admiral Elliott  the main supporters of the  Hydraulic drive where chiefly  interested in maintaining a sail powered navy  and at that time for very practical sound reasoning   but the views of James Napier  for a steam only battle fleet where hard to contest.  .  Although the 1866 experiments using HMS Waterwich fitted with the drive and pitted against HMS Viper and Vixen, screw driven warships proved that the future was the screw but not conclusively even Edward Reed the chief constructor of the navy admitted that.  In 1877 Thornycroft experimented with hydraulic drive using TB98 pitted against a screw driven   Torpedo Boat Unfortunately the water jet powered TB was not deemed a success. 
A  working  model   of the  RNLB  Duke of Northumberland  by les Jones of Holyhead North Wales .The model uses a centrifugal pump with movable thrust directors  located amidships of the hull .


Bowwave

[polaris]

Will reply after proper thought.

[polaris]

Dear Bowwave,

I have no intention of digressing into paddle/screw or other prime movers, since that subject is fraught with all sorts of 'time/date' differences!

I think maybe, the better terminology for what we are talking about is mechano-hydraulic... the reason being what is termed hydraulic these days, is not what it was now until about 1908. Sorry, not trying to be pedantic!

What you say is however very pertinent and most interesting... and the model/vessel you mention sounds very well worthwhile seeing

Regards, Bernard

[Les]

As the builder of the model of the RNLI's hydraulic lifeboat Duke of Northumberland I thought I should contribute to this thread.

Researching this lifeboat was one of the most interesting aspects of the project and I had been researching it over a period of ten years before commencing the model. One of the best sources was the paper "The Engineer", but it is such an interesting publication it is so easy to be diverted into other topics! The Science Museum were also extremely helpful although I believe the builder's model of her is no longer on display. I also found the British Library Patents Record Office to be extremely helpful.

The lifeboat itself was built by JF Green of Blackwall London but the boiler, steam plant and propulsion system were all installed by Thornycrofts.

I was interested to see from the diagram in the patent referred to in reply #1 it is very similar to my firstt attempt at a model propulsion system. I was attempting to recreate the system used in jet skis with a large surface area propellor turning in a "pipe" similar to a bowl pump. This was not very successful and after more abortive attempts with other methods I decided to reproduce the original system in miniature. The Duke of Northumberland had a steam powered centrifugal pump mounted at an angle of 15degrees to the horizontal. If I recall correctly it was 2' 6" in diameter and would discharge a ton of water per second. My researches had led me to the Thornycroft experiments with hydraulic propulsion with TB98 which turned out to be inferior to screw propulsion. I am convinced that the engine which was used in TB98 is the one which powered the Duke of Northumberland. All drawings and sketches I have seen show that the power plant and pump are identical although the valve arrangements are different. It seems to make sense to have used this engine which was probaly spare as the RNLI wanted a propulsion system which would not be stopped by wreckage of rigging or sails. Trials after her completion showed that the system proved effective in handling anything thrown in its path.

The Duke of Northumberland was stationed at New Brighton and Harwich before Holyhead. In 1908 she was the lifeboat used to save the crew of the SS Harold. For this service the Coxswain William Owen was awarded a Gold Medal and all the 11 crew awarded Silver Medals.

My self designed and built model impellor was 3" diameter and 1" deep and I was delighted when on trial it emptied a two gallon bucket of water in eight seconds. The valve arrangement was again copied from the original and works extremely well. Some experimentation was required with the size of the discharge pipework to give sufficiient exit velocity. As with all projects I think the experience gained would now enable me to build a better model.

The model does come out now and again at shows and is usually well received. It is always on display in the Holyhead Maritime Museum housed in the Old Lifeboat House, Newry Beach, Holyhead along with several of my other models.

Les Jones

[Bowwave]

Hello Bernard   as a further point of interest  the original ideas for    Hydraulic propulsion  or the concept of the water turbine for powering ships goes back  to 1787 and was pioneered by James Rumsey  a water engineer  but it was Bessemer and Ruthervan  who patented the principles  of Hydraulic propulsion  in the late 1840s . whilst in the patent office i took copies of the original pattent accompanied by the drawings of the centrifugal pump  each having  direct references to   hydraulic propulsion   defined in  the patent.    By the way   the Holyhead Maritime Museum mentioned by Les  is well worth visiting and  you can get a glimpse of the Duke of Northumberland and much more. 
Bowwave 

[Bowwave]

Although the  Holyhead Maritime Museum is small by comparison to the likes of the National Maritime Museum or Chatham yet it houses an excellent collection of ship models and martime artifacts.
This picture shows   models of some of the earlier life boats   from Holyhead and the  superb model of the RNLB Duke Of Northumberland .

Bowwave

[tobyker]

is this any relation of the cone drive used on some narrow boats?

[TailUK]

is this any relation of the cone drive used on some narrow boats?

Cone Drive as relates to narrowboats refers to a metal to rubber to metal coupler after the fashion of a clutch plate.  It's put into the drive train to reduce vibration and noise.

[Les]

The RNLI's Surf Class Lifeboat used a Hotchkiss Cone Drive propulsion system. Designed by Donald Vivien Hotchkiss  in the 1940s. Two cone shaped housings back to back with a paddle in the large end with the cone on the floor of the boat with approximately 1/3 exposed on the bottom of the boat. Water is drawn in at the small end and ejected at the large end having been speed up. They are supposed to be effective in shallow water at not liable to problems of clogging up with weeds or wreckage.gging.

Keith Young of CADMA made a superb working model of the type.

Les

[polaris]

Dear All,

I will not waste anybodies time, so put a Link below to give a brief idea of MHD (Magnetohyrdodynamics).. Les's post is definitive in the main above Subject field I think, so there is not much else to say beyond what he has said since he clearly knows very well this matter.

Re MHD. My interest in this started back in 1986 whilst owning/running as MD a geophysics R&D Co. (how this came to be is another story, but not for here/now). The concept of Induced Polarisation (IP), into the ground, to get 'feedback' from metallic bodies is very interesting, but what our eqpt. would do was to discriminate such below buried graphitic lithologies. This meaning, back in 1986, that we were ten years in advance of any other Co. in the World, and we had Patents to protect. Now, alongside all of this, the other electric and magnetic mineral expl. principles were obviously considerably enhanced, so what is called Time Domain (shunting an elec. pulse into the ground and watching how long it takes to 'decay' (signal comeback), became very interesting), since we could measure down to millionths of a volt - Argan diagrams were put into a different field as a result! I am not a geophysicist, but |I learnt a lot very quickly (had to). I still keep in contact with the Hd.of Dev./Lead man who was pivotal in the concept, and, with his considerable knowledge of fluid flow dynamics, we still have convs. on MHD. Indeed, I am testing a rather innovative new system on a machine at the moment, sounds grand doesn't it(!), but very 'simple'! - just a matter of power balance shall we say.

Anyway, thanks, all again.

Regards, Bernard

[polaris]

... oops, the Link!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics

[polaris]

Just as a small addendum: to those who might think me a bit of a dingbat from time to time(!!!), we had a multidisciplinary research contract with two GB Univs. and the BGS, the Nat. Geo.Surveys of Spain and Germany, and three leading Euro Univs.... they liked our tech.! There were two conferences in Madrid (very pleasurable I can assure you! - and veery expensive), and guess who had to stand to front and give the presentations! - mind you, I was not fool enough not to have our Dr Holstien etc. close by! The art of bluff I had prev. perfected long before!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!

However, it always helps to know as much as possible about a matter all the same! - even if one hasn't too much of clue about the mathematical equations of why! With me being a bit dyscalcula meant I had to learn parrot fashion quite a bit! - couldn't do it now I must admit! - far too old for such boldness!

Regards, Bernard

[Norseman]

to those who might think me a bit of a dingbat from time to time

Bernard - please remain a bit of a dingbat - I like you that way so don't ever change your style ........ and your posts are always interesting too.

Dave

[polaris]

Dear Dave,

If you insist! - and thankyou.

Well, you see, I have always been of a mind to speak my mind and say what I think (in most cases anyway), and always be honest and transparrent... what other else way is the right way? Some don't like it sometimes, but, I am of an age not to care too much about it... suppose as I get older still I will care even less, but only time will tell on that! LOL I do hold back sometimes of course, but then I just bide my time (as an old and very wise (now sadly deceased), prominent Canadian mining consultant friend said "Never get mad get even - always remember this".

Anyway, this way off topic, and I think the Subject can be finished here.

Kind Regards to All, Bernard