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Author Topic: crash tender (Fireboat) refurb and brushless conversion start to finish project!  (Read 40657 times)

FLAT-TOP-FLYER

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Well Paul,
Hope mine looks as good as that....brilliant.... :-)) :-)) :-)) :-)) :-))


Mike
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Norseman

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Knowing Paul I can well imagine it will all be just a blur when he opens the throttle up  O0 >>>>>>>>~

Dave
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red181

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yeah you are right Dave, fast!
started wiring up the lights, got a fantastic gizzmo from hobbyking for just a few quid, it will operate up to 7 seperate devices, in my case lights, from 1 receiver channel, in a series of flicking the switch, also got a couple of turnigy rc switches from a mayhemer to operate the searchlight, as I was fitting it all tonight, another delay, because I used light plasticard for the roof panels, the flippin lights shine through, and it looks stupid, so now I have to paint in a dark colour the inside of all the roof panels, just time consuming as no doubt it will take 2 or 3 coats to do it properly!, and getting at the underside of the wheelhouse roof will be very awkward, at least the end is in sight, cant wait to get it in the water again ok2 
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red181

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good job its a fireboat, this wiring is a potential fire hazard :}
 

 

 
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red181

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FINISHED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
Well, almost :embarrassed:
 
Gave it a shake down on sunday morning, all went reasonably well, good news was no explosions, nothing fell off, and it was bone dry inside,
 
Some work still required before I can say 100% finished. One motor was annoyingly coming on before the other, some recalibration of speed controllers back at home seems to have it cured, although I can tell one motor is slightly better than the other, thats what you get buying cheap chinese stuff I suppose.
 
When it was tested all those months ago I was using a variety of plastic two blade "x" props both going same direction. I now have real nice propshop counter rotating, and was somehwat disappointed that they seem to be bogging a bit, good news is I can p/x back with propshop who have a great after sales service, they were my choice, I think a little big, however its deceiving running  a large scale boat on a big lake. Later this week I will run with data logging onboard and can compare props to see what offers best performance. Run time will always be short with the sort of set up I like, way over scale speed :} 
 
And, so much for building light, it now weighs a ton, with 4 x 5000mah two cell lipos to power it, with the option of running 5 cells per motor.
 
Video to follow, and hopefully some pics when running, if I can find someone to drive, its a bit bum clenching to say the least! :-))
 

 
Proof it actually got wet last sunday
 


 
Pretty props!
 


 
A lot of milliamps!
 


Decals on!

 
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red181

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Little story about the pennants, the info most of us have, and the pics etc I used for this particular representation of an early version of "93" pre any mods or refits.
 

 
 
 
The boat was pre handover to the RAF, so therefore in most of the available documentation this is why the crew were not wearing RAF uniform, they were actually Vosper crew. So, the RAF insignia was not flown on the flag, it was a bastardised version of the Blue Ensign with a form of Vosper logo, Vosper have verified it would have been something like this, (thanks to Mike at scale flags for producing this lovely silk flag). The blue/white "A" pennant now has a different meaning to that back in 1952, then, the pennant signified "vessel under test and may deviate from true course" or something like that.
 



Just a bit of history for anybody interested!, that'S why my boat has different flags ;)
 
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red181

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had two testing sessions, I had TWO eagle tree data loggers on board, one on  each motor, it was a good opportunity to see how much the motors differ, I have my own set of Eagle tree data logger, lcd screen readout, gps module and rev counter, and will be selling Peter Henshaws duplicate set so it was an opportunity to test it and make sure it works, it was brand new in sealed bags, but worth taking the iopportunity to use it.
 
Well, my dilemma about counter rotaing props ended, for now anyway, that picture earlier of beautiful shiney props, one is now at the bottom of Gautby lake in Birkenhead :(( :((
 
Not concentrating 100%, didnt obviously tighten it up as tight as it was yesterday, and as it was the counter rotator, it fell off
 
Luckily I already had some data,
 
Propshop 3 blade cleaver as per pic, 20.83mph with 37amps, so quite efficient, well at least it was {:-{
 
Graupner two blade 50mm "x" props, same rotation 21.64mph with amp draw of 37.95. Troubel is, over 20mph this hull really is struggling, and you are holding on tight, not like my Huntsman that thrives on bumpy water and speed, this narrow shallow hull does not like speeding over its own wake in a big figure of eight :}  , but its not really supposed to be going 21mph is it! %%
 
I also had a set of 3 blade 40mm cleavers, counter rotating, that had been 4mm, so spent quite a while this mopring turning them to 5mm to fit this boat. Suprisingly, they just dont let the motors spin up, 4400rpm down on the "x" props, but planes much better as its 18.76mph, and quieter.
 
So there it is, I think the sub 20mph is better, boat looks better, and I was on a very big lake, on a usual sized model boat lake it will probably look way faster, got to find someone to video it now O0
 

 
jumble of wires with data logers x2 and the display screens
 

 





 
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Norseman

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Nice boat Paul  O0
I guess the data logger really nails all the info down tight. Must be nice to know rather than guesstimate performance.

Dave
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FLAT-TOP-FLYER

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Well what do you say.....Paul, was a pleasure to see her in the "flesh" at last. Goes like a dream, and certainly looks the....dogs-do-dars  :} :} :}


Not the best picture, but you've just got to love the storage box.... ;)


Well done Paul.. :-)) :-)) :-)) ...just means I've got to get cracking the whip.. <*< <*< <*<




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red181

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Thanks Mike, good to meet everyone at Liverpool Model Boat club, thank everyone for the warm welcome, pity about the shower of rain just when it was running, and the 3/4 stick performance, that choppy water and having to run same direction props due to losing one of my counter rotators meant handling was a bit difficult at speed, but at least you got the idea what its like, now its time to get yours done, number 94, then we can run as a pair! just like at Calshot in 1952! :} 
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FLAT-TOP-FLYER

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Your on.... %% %% %%
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red181

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here is a nice video, using 3 camera angles, not the finished article yet, needs some battery weight moving forward, and I am waiting for some props from propshop, but its good fun :-))
 
http://youtu.be/Ci6HHCZVQ0c
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derekwarner

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 {-)  I really like the Hank B Marvin .......E string rattle echo @ 2.54 minutes  {-) .....brilliant.....Derek
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mrlownotes

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here is a nice video, using 3 camera angles, not the finished article yet, needs some battery weight moving forward, and I am waiting for some props from propshop, but its good fun :-))
 
http://youtu.be/Ci6HHCZVQ0c

YouTube tells me that 'the content owner has not made this video available on mobiles'.
I cannot watch it on my Android tablet.
It's not a problem as I can see it on my PC, but just thought I'd mention it as maybe other 'mayhemmers' the might be browsing on Android tablets.
It's a superb model and I am thoroughly enjoying your build log.
Many thanks for sharing your experience.

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Bintur Ellenbach

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Very dramatic and excellent film.

Thank you for showing us


Ken
 
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Martin [Admin]

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 :-)) :-))
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Steven.T

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That speed is awesome! I think I'll have to get my Grandad to use a similar set up when he gets his kit finished...
I liked the view from the rear, although I did start feeling a bit sea-sick!
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red181

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thanks for all the comments, if anybody has any questions that may help their own builds ask away, Im no expert, but my trials and tribulations may help!  :-))
 
Yes the camera's do make you a bit seasick!! Hopefully moving some of the battery weight forward will stop that high speed porpoising, if it throttles back just a bit it goes away, and I think the props are causing some of the problem. Unfortunately the cameras where not quite in the right positions, particulary the front one.
 
From the rear, its interesting to see how shallow the hull is in the water, inspite of the front being way up on the plane, and I suspect a bit of cavitation when you watch the water, but im getting really picky here! :embarrassed:
The props at the moment are same direction, the setup is for counter rotation, so that might also help. When the boat is running it sounds quite quiet, not the case when onboard, some big resonate chimes going on there :} 
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red181

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sometime I hate rc modelling :((
 
Last time this boat was out it was the video, everything was wonderful, cleaned it and put it away. Two days ago I decided to give it a blast, everything all charged up, off to the lake, it was useless, no speed whatsoever <:(
 
It was quite strange, all the lipos (4) have cell checkers and low volt alarms so I dont over drain them, all showed fully charged, but on the water it was like they were flat. Back home I hooked up the eagle tree data logger with the rev counter and ran it up, both motors were pretty much identical, but both down on revs from all the previous testing.
So, recalibrated the two escs, still no better, tried another esc, tried another tx and rx, checked all wiring, everything was nice and smooth, no binding, could not fault anything. Today I recharged the batteries, although not much had been used, and went back out. Happily I recorded pretty much the same top speed I have had previously, 21.5mph, but very soon a lipo alarm went off, but the voltage was fine, so I suspect one of the batteries is failing. I hope its that, as its an easy fix, but I have to spend money!
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red181

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whilst at the lake today, having suspected that I might have a duff battery, I took some spare lipo packs, the two 3 cell 5300mah ones I use in the Huntsman, so for some fun, I tried it on 5 cells per motor instead of 4,
 
FLIPPIN HECK! :} :}
 
Had to hold on tight, this hull isnt made for speed, but in windy choppy conditions I recorded a very brief as it was going unstable 24.65mph,
 
great fun! :-))
 
Coincidentally I also received today long awaited beautiful 3 blade counter rotating propshop props, but alas, whilst the amp draw was half, the speed was only 18mph, so its back to the drawing board with them {:-{
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red181

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Update :}

Thinking all was well, as the last run out in dec was a great success, data logging recording speed in the region of 22mph, The boat was put away. Patting myself on the back, thinking pretty much job completed, wrong :((

Recently got the boat out again, took it for a run, it was awful, after much fiddling and messing, it was diagnosed the low voltage cut out on the speed controllers was coming in after only a minute or so of running, by the time the boat was back to the bank, the batteries where reading high voltage, and the lvc had reset, so I couild not trace the fault. This happened over and over again. Borrowed batteries with similar capacity, things improved, so batteries eliminated, although these lipos are a few years old, and cheap brand, so I know I am living on borrowed time with them. Things started to point to the motors. originally they were bought cheap, as the whole project was a bit experimental. Data logging refitted showed a very high wattage reading, over the motors capacity. I stripped everything down, replaced a couple of noisy bearings, but although it was good, it still was not performing as it should.

After a lot of research regarding the turnigy esc's I am using, it appeared that they sometimes throw a wobbler, and lose settings, particularly the low voltage cut off. Whilst the batteries were not dropping too low, achieving the high speed was a sudden dip ijn voltage, when slowing down the batteries quickly recover, the esc's where thinking the difference in voltage was infact going too low. I fitted another pair of esc's and the problem disappeared :-))

I have now reset all the settings, and lowered the lvc, yesterday the boat performed real nice. I have also received a pair of 47mm 3 blade counter rotating props frok propshop, and have settled for a marginal reduction in speed, but a massive reduction in amp draw, meaning the boat will run  abit longer, and the motort5s are running well within tolerances.

Propshop advised having the props turning outwards, and it made sense with this narrow hull, however this caused real bad handling when turning at anything less than 1/3 throttle. I swopped them over to turning inwards, and problem solved, now turns fine at all speeds.

So, I probably will need to consider better motors and batteries in the future, but for now, its fine. Its surprising how much gunge needs cleaning after little use, maybe a characteristic of a faster boat? It does need some tlc though! :embarrassed:

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Circlip

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Lot to be said for a pair of "Racers"   O0    {-)
 
 
   Regards  Ian.
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red181

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bit of an update, after struggling recently with this boat, I decided to treat it to some new batteries, but wanted to invest in some that I can also use in my Huntsman, this uses 5000mah 3 cell packs (x2).

I used the last of the "secret stash" and bought a pair of turnigy nano tech 5000 mah, so now I have a spare pair for the Huntsman, but will mean running 5 cells per motor instead of 4 cells on the Fireboat. My thinking being on a big lake use these, and on a small lake go back to the 4 cell set up. Esc's have been set up without lvc, and all packs have a low voltage buzzer on them to protect from over discharge.  The problem now was the battery box was too small, so had to be modified! Its even heavier now. So on a lonely Sunday morning, on a big lake, I gave it a blast, and am happy to report all went well, no problems at all, but I wonder how long these cheapo motors will last, they are 900watts, and I used all of that, and some! Although I was going to cruise at a fast scale speed, I just could not help myself and opened it up, 25.3mph, now that's fast, silly fast, for this boat, and another 5 mins of fun!
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colin-stevens

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Thinking of doing this one myself, Beautiful  looking boat. Beautiful looking model. Got to admit I havnt had time to read through it all just yet though.
Gave up on my last fast boat project, total failure on the speed front, spent a small fortune on props batteries motors, really lost heart. Dont want to make the same mistake again so wonder if you could summarise on the set up you have at the moment? Motor details/prop details ect.
The other alternative is a tug, the safe sure easy option, but not as nice to look at, nor as emotive. Might be more accepted down the pond though.

Colin
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red181

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Hi Colin, its very dependent on the boat, shape of hull, weight etc as to what set up will work, even modelling the same boat it will be different. I doubt you will want to have the same drive line I have, so I would suggest rather than a summary thinking it will work for you in another boat, read the full thread, it might just give you some ideas and I don't want to throw you off track.

My take of "speed" is way over scale speed and to some is far too fast, some love it, some think it was ridiculous spending all that time replicating the boat as accurate as I can, then making it go so fast, but that what I like doing. Anyway, ramble over, When I am on  a VERY big lake, I run of 5 cells per motor, 5000mah lipos, 35c discharge, the motors are 850kv (or there about) 47mm 3 blade custom made prop shop props, 60a esc on each motor, shafts have glacier water lubricated bearings at water end, and 2 ballrace bearings at top, with then a ballrace either end of the motor.

It will run happily on a small lake with much less serious batteries etc. On the above set up its 24mph, 15 mins %%

Not many want this sort of performance on a 4 foot heavy ply boat, don't let this put you off! my 3 foot fireboat has one conventionally mounted 880kv motor, runs on 4 5000mah lipo cells, 60a esc, and isn't much slower!

Paul
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