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[Colin Bishop]

very true but but the Repulse and Renown's WW1 encounter with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau really worried the admiralty with ammount of damage they took and were whisked into dock to have armour fitted ( as designed they had little to no armour )

Sorry but I don't think that is right. Both Renown and Repulse were taken in hand shortly after joining the Grand Fleet in WW1 to have additional armour fitted and hull strengthening forward. Further improvements were undertaken between the wars, including replacement of the 6 inch armour belt with a 9 inch one and Renown was totally rebuilt prior to WW2 with additional deck armour worked in and vastly enhanced AA defences. As such, with her 15 inch guns, she was a pretty good match for either Scharnhorst or Gneisenau although not to be risked against a modern full battleship. Renown finished the war as the RN's fastet capital ship. Repulse of course succumbed to Japanese air launched torpedoes hich she was not designed to withstand. To my knowledge, neither were modified as a result of Renown's encounter with thre the two German ships although she did suffer some hits which caused minor damage. Scarnhorst  lost her fore turret in the encounter and Gneisenau her after one. Not bad for a WW1 veteran!

Were you thinking of the 1914 Falklands battle with Invincible and Inflexible? In which case the two British ships suffered only superficial damage from the German Armoured cruisers, both of which were sunk.

Colin

[Stormbringer]

Sorry but I don't think that is right. Both Renown and Repulse were taken in hand shortly after joining the Grand Fleet in WW1 to have additional armour fitted and hull strengthening forward. Further improvements were undertaken between the wars, including replacement of the 6 inch armour belt with a 9 inch one and Renown was totally rebuilt prior to WW2 with additional deck armour worked in and vastly enhanced AA defences. As such, with her 15 inch guns, she was a pretty good match for either Scharnhorst or Gneisenau although not to be risked against a modern full battleship. Renown finished the war as the RN's fastet capital ship. Repulse of course succumbed to Japanese air launched torpedoes hich she was not designed to withstand. To my knowledge, neither were modified as a result of Renown's encounter with thre the two German ships although she did suffer some hits which caused minor damage. Scarnhorst  lost her fore turret in the encounter and Gneisenau her after one. Not bad for a WW1 veteran!

Were you thinking of the 1914 Falklands battle with Invincible and Inflexible? In which case the two British ships suffered only superficial damage from the German Armoured cruisers, both of which were sunk.

Colin

yes i was lol sorry for that got mixed up
did Repulse and Renown see any action in WW1 ?

[pugwash]

Repulse saw no action in WW1 but R
enown had a minor part in the 2nd Battle of Heligoland Bight hitting one of the german
cruisers

Geoff

[Colin Bishop]

Apparently Repulse participated in the 1917 Heligoland Bight action but Renown saw no combat in WW2. The two ships were certainly 'white elephants' when they first joined the fleet and continuing improvements resulted in their being nicknamed Refit and Repair. In most respects they were not bad bargains in the end but the triple 4 inch secondary armament with which they were initially fitted was not a successful mounting.Repulse was never fully modernised before her loss but Renown was a very useful unit during WW2. 6x15 inch guns and 29 knots was a force to be reckoned with although she was told to stand off from the last battle of the Bismarck and let King George V and Rodney get on with it. Bismarck was largely destroyed by Rodney which although older, was a fundamentally better design, albeit with some weaknesses such as a very narrow armour belt. At the time Rodney was only carrying armour piercing shells as her high explosive ones had been landed due to her imminent refit in the USA. So she kept shooting holes through Bismark rather than setting her on fire which destroyed her fighting capability but didn't blow her up. It was the torpedoes from Rodney and the cruisers that finished her off.

Colin

[dodes]

Hi Colin, I think it was a good job that Rodney had AP shells, as the 14" proved dissapointing in penertration in this engagement and at North Cape, by the way APCM shells do have a bursting though not as much as HE. But these old battlecruisers were not very well protected even after major refits as you are tacking on new stuff to existing old material, after all they were never designed to actually tack on a battleship of the line.

[Colin Bishop]

Quite right, Renown was never a match for a 'proper' battleship and never intended to be but would have been fine against cruisers or pocket battleships of the Graf Spee type. All warships are inevitably compromises, some better than others.
 
Yes, I knew that armour piercing shells had a bursting charge, I seem to remember 5% by weight being mentioned somewhere. The 14 inch gun and shell was supposed to be effective but, as you say, did appear to be somewhat disappointing in practice, although Prince of Wales did get some useful hits on Bismarck.
 
There is a fascinating book entitled 'Jutland - an Analysis of the Fighting' by John Campbell which describes in graphic detail the effects of heavy shells hitting different parts of warships, protected and unprotected:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Jutland-Analysis-Fighting-Conway-Classics/dp/0851777503
 
When at Portsmouth recently, I noticed that on the Gunwharf development seafront they now have a 12 inch shell on display. You just have to imagine something like this, full of explosive, hurtling through the air and inpacting on the structure of the ship you are in. Quite sobering really.
 
Colin

[dodes]

Hi Colin, yes I agree with what you say, it is all very frightening if one of those things are coming your way, the sinking of the Bismark may fill a large book but in reality it took only 45 minutes to put her down. I used to transport 1000 lb aerial bombs quite regulary years ago, they could leave a crater 30ft across and 30ft deep and thier bursting charge was 150kilos. I remember once I was forced to follow a P&O ferry out of Portsmouth harbour once, she was going so slow and with a minium speed of 11 knots with the Arrochar I was having to put the engine in and out of gear continually. If the ferry master knew I had in excess of 200 x 1000lb bombs onboard I think he would have insisted on waiting for me to go first rather than me wait for him and follow very closs behind him.

[Colin Bishop]

If the ferry master knew I had in excess of 200 x 1000lb bombs onboard I think he would have insisted on waiting for me to go first rather than me wait for him and follow very closs behind him.

Or he might have pushed the throttles through the stops and arrived in France a couple of hours early!
 
Colin

[dodes]

Yeah that is a possibility Colin, I remember my first voyage on Arrochar, it was from Glen Mallon on the Clyde to Portsmouth. It was a time expired 500lb bomb, deemed to dangerous to be transported by road but okay by sea as then only the crew of the transporting vessel was at risk not the general public. Another regular job was transporting time expired Sea Wolves from Devonport to Bedenham Gosport for the same afore mention reason, usually about 195 in number, leave Devonport about 1800 be at Bedenham for next morning start of work. The work was transferred to lorries about 22 in a rotational shuttle overnight. Max number then under the dangerous goods act was about 6 with a dummy lorry following 20m behind to stop any traffic getting in between, the reason was should there be an accident if a missile comes adrift and breaks there should be no RF signals from mobiles etc which could set of the I E D in the missile. But there you are the Ministry wanted to reduce the number of people at Bedenham etc to safe money and the Munitions department in the MoD write the regulations for the MCA and the DTI.