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Author Topic: CAD are you interested....  (Read 47453 times)

F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #50 on: October 07, 2012, 09:16:30 pm »

I personally would like to know what each program is capable of.

For example, in my coble project (shown earlier), the planks were developed in Freeship which is only designed for carvel planking, where as a coble is clinker. This poses an issue as the software naturally wants to curve the planks horizontally to join to the base of the next.

The clinker overlap on my planned model coble is going to be 2mm and so the 2d planks needed to be imported into turbocad and the planks given an extra 2mm to cover this issue.

My frames, complete with the plank overlaps built in are formed from careful measurements and therefore the ability to fit my planks to my 3d jig would be most useful for a few reasons...

However the problem is that, from what i can see, you cannot take a 2d profile, turn it into 3d by adding thickness and then forcing this plank to be bent to suit the notches on the frames/jig.

Im not even sure autocad can do this either (someone please correct me), and is more a rhino feature. Equally, should any refinement need doing on the planks, then this 3d shape would need to be converted back to a 2d for water jetting (again i don't believe autocad can do this - unroll command?

So basically, for my project atleast, more than one program is needed which then begs the question, what file formats are best to use to important and export between programs...

Dan
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #51 on: October 07, 2012, 09:17:13 pm »

Doesn't look free on their site. Just a 30 day trial , which is not free software, by my definition.

Yeah i noticed that too.

May aswell do a 30 trial on autocad..
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Kim

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #52 on: October 07, 2012, 09:49:14 pm »

Doesn't look free on their site. Just a 30 day trial , which is not free software, by my definition.

Yep not free anymore :(

Fat cat -
I sent you some ideas on how to deal with your project but the line has gone dead since then ...

I think i explained it be easier to build a 3d model then flatten the parts. Trying to draw flat for a curved surface not knowing the dimensions aint going to be easy, not limitation of the software.
You might find sketchup easier to get to grips with the 3d side of things then take your new skills to Rhino / cad etc.

The nice thing about sketchup is it has a 'windows' feel to the ribbon / command buttons &  basic functions to master to begin with.

Regards.
Kim
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grendel

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #53 on: October 07, 2012, 11:48:10 pm »

freeship looks nice, I'll have to have a play.
Grendel
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #54 on: October 08, 2012, 10:09:37 am »

Yep not free anymore :(

Fat cat -
I sent you some ideas on how to deal with your project but the line has gone dead since then ...

I think i explained it be easier to build a 3d model then flatten the parts. Trying to draw flat for a curved surface not knowing the dimensions aint going to be easy, not limitation of the software.
You might find sketchup easier to get to grips with the 3d side of things then take your new skills to Rhino / cad etc.

The nice thing about sketchup is it has a 'windows' feel to the ribbon / command buttons &  basic functions to master to begin with.

Regards.
Kim

I see your point, however I see this as a very complicated task and therefore specialised in some way. Most cad guys ive spoken too don't tend to want to give their secrets away.

The 2d planks were made from a 3d model on freeship and so are basically correct.

Another point is the first few planks on a coble. The very first off the stem starts vertical, then goes horizontal in the middle belly part and then if it has a tunnel, it bends back on itself.

I think another issue is understanding how the program works. For example, I used the assemble function in turbocad to piece together the above jig. Now what I assumed would happen is - you select parts of the plank and where these parts must sit on the frame etc etc and then the software will then twist and bend the plank accordingly.... If only it was that simple I guess.

Dan
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grendel

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #55 on: October 08, 2012, 10:50:38 am »

actually CAD isnt that easy - really you have to get your brain into where every point is in 3 dimensions, in a 3D model its all too easy to put a line where it looks right, only to find you have created an optical illusion and the line is only correct viewed from exactly that angle, so the tricky bit is defining a point in space. worse still when you try and flatten out a 3d curved space you have to be very careful not to alter lengths between points. the art in CAD is in the operators head, the vizualisation, too many people coming into CAD dont seem to have this skill, and as such will only ever achieve a second rate skill in the software (you can train anyone to draw lines and use the software - not many can get their head inside its intricacies) you need to know what you are trying to do before you can find the easiest way of doing it (in CAD there isnt a right way and a wrong way, there are many possible ways to achieve the same result.

now I have been looking at freeship, its interesting, but I do wish you could import from autocad, rather than the inprecise method of ssaving a view from autocad as a jpg image (even tiff support would help). still after a couple of hours I nearly have my hull input.
Grendel
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #56 on: October 08, 2012, 11:32:07 am »

As we all know, freeship and delftship are essentially the same software, however freeship allows you to develop the plates for the planking, where as delftship doesn't in the free version.

It's not that easy to use in my opinion, quite laborious in the respect of converting your offsets into decimal etc. the first coble I designed in it looked ok, but was infact a mess. This one has been designed correctly.

Delftship may hold the answer in regard to your importing issues, however it is at cost and is it really worth spending that amount, just for this requirement.

I've seen a few turbocad tutorial videos but there is a distinct lack of ones which show really advanced 3d work, something that I wish to learn.

As for you words about the actual imagination and understanding the drawing environment, yes I see your point and I have had such issues of placing lines and then them appearing elsewhere in the drawing. I really really want to learn and will be trying new things over the coming weeks and months.

There is a site called Paul the cad, where he makes fascinating 3d models on turbocad, however these tutorials are at a cost.

Dan

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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #57 on: October 08, 2012, 06:24:32 pm »

Sorry, the site with excellent 3d tutorials at a price is http://www.textualcreations.ca/

Dan
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Kim

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #58 on: October 08, 2012, 07:29:07 pm »

Hi Dan,

Here is a wee exercise to get you going –

Open sketchup -

Draw an arc, any old arc, were just playing so not worrying about dimensions.

Now use the offset tool ( The one that looks like two offset arcs with the arrow)

Offset the line, again we are just playing not worrying about dimensions

Now select the Pencil tool, join the end of both arcs

Now use the push pull button. Pull the two arcs toward the sky and hey presto! With a bit of imagination it could be a plank on the side of the cobble?

Ok, now try downloading the Biezer polyline ruby script for sketchup and we now have greater control of the original line shape.
If we drew the frames in sketchup and used them as a guide for our plank positions we’d be getting somewhere.

Now with these basic new skills we could go to another cab package and try a similar exercise using Nurbs lines and thickening.

Then we could try flattening – depending on the cad pack’s capabilities. This could be straight forward hunt the button or could need a bit of figuring out.

Let us know how you go
Regards
Kim
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Bryan Young

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #59 on: October 08, 2012, 07:49:05 pm »

May I inject a bit of humour and history into this interesting topic?
My first computer was an Amiga 500. I upgraded it with a double disc drive and an external hard drive. Plus a lot more RAM.
One of the programmes I bought was called "Real 3D". It was easy to undersatand and could easily produce images as good as all the expensive stuff I'm reading about on here.
During a few long boring nights chuntering around the Indian Ocean I began to draw my then embryo replica of a 1954 MG TF.
I drew the chassis, drive chain, engine and wheels (spoked with tyres)....and zooming in to the engine I could get the pistons and valves working.
I did some of the bodywork.....but then it was time to fly home again.
I still have the Amiga, but it takes too long to rig up...and my monitor won't acknowledege its existence.
But for a computer of such miniscule power to be able to do this when our "modern" stuff takes terrabytes to do a similar thing beggars belief. BY/
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Circlip

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #60 on: October 08, 2012, 08:12:56 pm »

What you're forgetting Brian is that in the days of the Amiga, every Byte saved on a programme was met with great celebrations. As the storage went up, so did the lazyness of the programmers.

  I upgraded to a 386 for Haughty clod R12

  Regards   Ian.
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Kim

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #61 on: October 08, 2012, 08:15:26 pm »

Blymey Brian,
I'm impressed!

I had a great chat with a local engineer that used to use binary ribbons to run the 'cnc' machines.
I have difficulty organising my files in a computer never mind huge spools of tape...

Nice story anyway.
Regards,
Kim
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #62 on: October 08, 2012, 08:53:34 pm »

Kim,

managed the exercise with no issue, and made a modified fresh curve on the right:



I assume i have downloaded the correct thing....



and my 3d model from turbocad has happily imported into sketchup



Dan
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Kim

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #63 on: October 08, 2012, 09:02:15 pm »

Hi Dan,

You got it.  :-))

Now, what do you want to do with it -

1. Keep as a nice drawing or
2. Use cam to produce a model

If use cam you might want to think about what to do next -

1. Produce frames & planks
2. Produce a plug / 3d model

I think i know the answer but be interesting for others to see how the project moves forward..
Regards,
Kim
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #64 on: October 08, 2012, 09:28:22 pm »

one thing i have been trying to do just then was to try creating a few things from that plugin by snapping to the appropriate parts on the jig, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Ive used a spline thing to create this plank, however it doesn't look very planky to me...






I will have a look at this tutorial in greater detail - http://www.aecbytes.com/tipsandtricks/2009/issue42-sketchup.html i assume its what im after...

It just goes to show what use this thread has already been - i didn't know you could install plugins into sketchup that do specialised things!

Dan
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grendel

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #65 on: October 08, 2012, 11:11:56 pm »

when I started with microstation we had unix terminals boasting a marvellous 32K, they were connected by a 10kbit router to the mainframe in our office 60 miles away, everyone in the company connected to this, we could noticeably slow the entire system by doing a search on all 3 workstations (£32,000 each) things slowly got better and faster, until the day we got a 386 pc that ran the CAD, this was slower then the current unix machines, but was stand alone.
progress was made and my department inherited some of the old cad machines, along with these we got 2 servers (each the size of a filing cabinet) boasting 5 x 1Gb hard drives each, we also inherited the 4th full format scanner ever made (original cost £250,000) and boy do I wish I had kept some of the 12 linear cameras mounted inside that.

on a side note I have been getting along with freeship, working out how it works, my hull is in, just smoothing those curves out now, as a program, for someon with experience of CAD its quite easy to ick up once you find the controls you want.
Grendel
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Kim

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #66 on: October 09, 2012, 07:58:47 am »

Hi Dan,

Does your 'jig' have thickens to the frames, maybe convert / redraw as a line drawing and the snap feature may find the edge for you.

Does the Plank fit in all 3 dimensions when 'held up against the jig ... if so then it should be right?

If you want to then flatten the shape your probably going to have to make the moveaway from sketchup (unless there has been a script written for that function)

I have said it before Dan, Auto Inventor will allow sheet metal working functions so flatten in Autodesk software is achievable ..... Like i say some cad will just be a case of hunt the button some may need a little more digging. Plenty of people have shown interest so the answers are out there!

Regards,

Kim
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #67 on: October 09, 2012, 09:48:43 am »

If I have a boat hull designed in a CAD package is there any reason why I cant have a plug made on a CNC machine?
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #68 on: October 09, 2012, 09:55:58 am »

The jig itself with the notching is 4mm thick, the planking is 2mm.  

I need to fully read the instructions with the plugin and try to understand it more. As for the snaps, yes it snaps in the corner of where it should each time.

Even with the jig as is, the existing 2d planking i have should fit, however even if it doesn't, then planking can be made by hand and then converted to cad profiles for future water jetting. Only thing stopping me at the moment is cost.

I have found a program called flattery and I have demonstrated what it does below. I have unfolded the curved 'depth' of the arc to a 2d face which could then be orientated to 'top' for any CNC work.



One thing it wont seem to do is make the arc into a rectangular shape, although thinking about it, it is essentially a 2d profile already and could be CNC'd.



The program can also add tabs to faces so that say a cube can be assembled if made from paper etc...

There is a similar plugin called waybe which looks better but is at cost.

Dan
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vnkiwi

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #69 on: October 09, 2012, 10:40:12 am »

Hi.
you guys tried '123D' was free from autocad while it was being developed?
cheers
kiwi
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Subculture

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #70 on: October 09, 2012, 11:20:47 am »

Good catch Kiwi, now that's what I'm talking about.
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boatmadman

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #71 on: October 09, 2012, 12:28:29 pm »

If I have a boat hull designed in a CAD package is there any reason why I cant have a plug made on a CNC machine?

No reason whatsoever.

This model hull was developed that way. CAD designed, cnc cut plug, mould taken and hull cast. This is a small prototype to test the performance of the design. There are larger (about 1m) hulls being cast which may appear at the blackpool show.

Ian
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essex2visuvesi

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #72 on: October 09, 2012, 12:47:39 pm »

Ah thats good news..... now to find someone who can CNC the design
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boatmadman

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #73 on: October 09, 2012, 12:50:56 pm »

Mine was done here:

http://www.clydemodelboats.co.uk/

Ian
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F4TCT

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Re: CAD are you interested....
« Reply #74 on: October 09, 2012, 01:28:29 pm »

Steve at model boat bits also does it, however i haven't had a response of him (i emailed weeks ago) so balls to him..

Will use Kim's services from now on.

will try that 123d out, cheers

Dan
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