Model Boat Mayhem - Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length.
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10]   Go Down

Author Topic: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser  (Read 26673 times)

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,892
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #225 on: March 05, 2019, 02:07:53 PM »

Geoff,

When I was rooting around earlier I did notice that the director control platform was fitted to various other Grand Fleet ships beneath their foretops in a similar way as to Invincible. It would nake sense that ships with a similar mast configurations would have had equally similar director platform installations fitted by the shipyards when they were refitted, I can't believe they would have all been designed individually from scratch. More probably there was a common basic design which was modified as needed to fit individual ships.

Therefore it is probably worth looking at photos of other ships in the early wartime years to see if there are common elements to the platforms which might give a clue about the access arrangements.

As originally designed, I believe the capital ships had internal ladders running up the tripod trailing legs which terminated in the foretop, The director platform was a subsequent addition so Akira may well have a point that a vertical external ladder might have been provided down from the foretop.

It's intriguing!

Colin
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,892
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #226 on: March 05, 2019, 02:52:27 PM »

Further to my post above I have now noticed that HMS Canada had a similar arrangement.

There is an excellent photo here:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/AG208-AA-158-NN-1-1338.jpg

You can click on any part of it to enlarge and it clearly shows a vertical ladder extending from the top of the bridge up into the director platform.

As you may bea ware, there is a builder's model of HMS Canada which featured in the recent Jutland exhibition at Portsmouth Dockyard having been restored for th occasion.
https://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g186298-d10461176-i247059210-Jutland_1916-Portsmouth_Hampshire_England.html

Although the exhibition is now closed I assume the model is still on site and it may be sufficiently detailed to show access arrangements. However it appears that the Museum are not currently responding to search requests...

https://www.nmrn.org.uk/contact-us

Colin

Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #227 on: March 05, 2019, 08:16:06 PM »

Interesting reads and of course very helpful pictures. Unfortunately Geoff Iím not sure either but if I find anything substantial Iíll share the information.
Iíve just restarted my build trying to catch up, finishing off the quarter deck planking before completing the gun turrets. Iím remaking my funnels simply because I liked your method better, the vacform items donít quite have the crispness I want.
Looking forward to seeing your pictures.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #228 on: March 06, 2019, 09:05:34 AM »

Nick,


Good to hear of some more progress. I'll post some pictures on my thread next week. Back to the director question, there are a number of issues:


1) I agree similar ships would probably have had similar arrangements but care needs to be taken as the legs on some tripods stopped short of the spotting top and access was through the legs - Anatomy of the ship Dreadnought shows this clearly. Invincible, and others had legs which extended up to the spotting top. Going through my books shed no light as predictably the shots are all taken at the wrong angle.


2) On the Sambrook plans that I have they have been right in everything so far. There is a plan of the later spotting top which shows clearly three manholes. One central for the main leg and two aft. These are for the ladders on the outside of the legs which then clearly go vertical to the spotting top.


3) However it clearly shows there are no other manhole covers so this suggests ladders going down to the director were not there. The distance between the outside ladders and the director platform is just too far and if that was the access route why not just extend the directot platform a little further aft to meet the ladders - they did not because they did not need to as obviously there was another route.


4) One anomaly with the director platform plan is that it is linked to the two legs to about 50% of their diameter so it overlaps each side with the width to take a man. My initial thoughts were that this was to secure support (correct for sure) but I can't see any value in having it wider unless there were doors cut in the legs. The problem with this theory is that if there were ladders inside the legs why have them outside as well and why are there no manholes over the legs in the spotting top so that doesn't really make sense.


5) My conclusion is that as there was a ladder inside the main leg and it reaches the spotting top it would have been very simple and logical to cut another door to facilitate access to the director platform. This would all make sense and fit the photigraphs of no clear access route as its just not visible.


6) Rotating the director would then give outside access to the platform for maintenance work unless sliding doors were fitted which would just give room to squeeze out.




I will continue to do some research but at the moment I think the central leg nust have been fitted with a sliding door. Another area of research is to find plans of the director itself which may show an access door. Rememeber the director was able to rotate about 300 degrees.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,892
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #229 on: March 06, 2019, 09:36:26 AM »

Geoff,

That all sounds pretty logical and it's very unlikely that anyone would be able to prove differently.

The outside ladders were probably used for maintenance purposes or in connection with renewing/replacing rigging etc.

Colin
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #230 on: March 06, 2019, 09:08:21 PM »

Knowing what the military is like, Iím thinking that would have used anything that was pre-existing as a basis and then added to it, however that is from a modern perspective as the budget today is vastly different to 1914/15. Logically there are only a limited amount of solutions to the problem either external ladders or doors accessed from the mast centre pole are the most obvious ones.
Looking at my photos if my Dreadnought build representing her in 1916 after her last major refit I used the anatomy of the ship book to build this area and it was difficult to work out how they gained access to the structure around the director (it had hand rails around it too) but didnít clearly show a hatch on the director itself. The main access into the director on Dreadnought was via the old manholes into the base of the director.
I havenít got access to my plans since Iím at work at the moment so I canít remember if there is an internal ladder on the Invincible but itís a shame that pictures of this critical area are in short supply as I would love to see what was going on up there.
As always if I find anything out Iíll let you know.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Akira

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Hope, Maine USA
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #231 on: March 08, 2019, 05:59:49 PM »

Geoff, Please check your messages for my e-mail. I have scans for you.Jonathan
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #232 on: March 08, 2019, 07:33:50 PM »

Hi Geoff


Just spent this afternoon having a good study of the original plans in John Robertsís British Battlecruisers.
My understanding is as follows:


The ladder marked in blue which runs up the length of the foremast centre pole appears to be an internal ladder not external as the one running up the LH and RH supporting poles. Iím guessing from the layout control platform in relation to the former searchlight platform that to gain access to the searchlight platform is from the vertical ladder from the control platform above. It appears to me that you can climb the internal ladder inside the mast to the control platform entering it via a manhole then down an external ladder on to the roof of the director on the redesigned searchlight platform.
See what you think.


31-D4-E9-A3-71-E7-42-F7-AEFC-FEBC339-AAE58" border="0
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Colin Bishop

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 9,892
  • Location: SW Surrey, UK
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #233 on: March 08, 2019, 08:05:51 PM »

Yes, I would agree Nick. The ladder down looks like a rope ladder. Maybe they made it a metal ladder when the searchlight platform was adapted for the director.

Colin
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #234 on: March 08, 2019, 08:39:16 PM »

The issue I have after looking at one of the few full views of Invincible in 1914 is the modified control platform. It's extended forward so the use of an external rope ladder might not be possible however since there doesn't seem to be any clear drawing showing the modelifications made to the control platform there may be a manhole over this position leading down to a roof access hatch into the director. The ship's drawings in the pre-mentioned book by J Roberts shows a strange extension from the director into the foremast central pole but looking at the attached picture of Invincible at the Battle of the Falkland Islands there is clearly a large-ish gap between the director and the foremast. I still guess that the main access was via a roof access hatch after climbing down a rope ladder which seems very, very scary in times of battle if you wanted to enter or escape the director.


default" border="0
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Akira

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 230
  • Model Boat Mayhem is Great!
  • Location: Hope, Maine USA
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #235 on: March 08, 2019, 11:22:26 PM »

It appears, from plans of her 1914 rig, the the platform in question was extended aft enough to allow access to it from the external ladders extending up the aft legs of the mast.
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #236 on: March 10, 2019, 07:34:52 PM »

Hi Akira


I agree, I think that was probaly for everyday access, i.e. nice weather, normal peacetime patrols, but I think when in bad weather or battle situations I think they would use the internal ladder in the foremast to climb up to the control platform then climb down to the director. On the Sambrook plans it is difficult to read as there is so much writing in such small areas. Geoff, if you look at the second detail plan showing the different deck levels there is a manhole on the starboard side of the upper rangefinder, almost underneath the rangefinder. Its got a written marker next to saying its a manhole and I can't see anything else it could go to other than the director platform. I still haven'd found any hard proof though...


But on a similar vessel, HMS New Zealand, the director is fitted in a similar position, I've attached this picture incase you can see anything that I can't.


DSCN4067" border="0


Done a bit more planking on the quarterdeck, hopefully the planking will be finished next weekend.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #237 on: March 11, 2019, 02:01:45 PM »

Firstly thank you all for the feedback which is very much appreciated. It is this sort of assistance that maked MBM such a good site.


Okay now to comment with my thoughts:


- The plan indeed does show a ladder (rope ladder) comming down from the foretop however this is to the searchlight platform which was later removed for the director platform which was larger. The director platform was also lower down. At the same time the foretop was extended forwards to make room for additional fire control instruments. The Sambrook plans show that there was no manhole cover at this point - indeed this would be directly underneath the rangefinder stand and the angle down would not permit any other type of ladder.


- Fire control crew were a specialist division and they may not have been agile enough to climb such ladders 100 feet above deck, particularly in a storm or in action.


- The original plans show a ladder in the main strut so I suspect this was the prefered route to the fortop (and the director top). The ladders on the outside would have been reseve access routes. Curiously with Dreadnought they also contained internal ladders but crucialy the legs stopped short of the foretop so this was possible.


- The legs on Invincible's tripods almost disapear at the top so it would have been hard to secure access with internal ladders. We need to reflect that at the time this was all cutting edge technology so they were trying out subtley different solutions in different ships.


- I generally concur with the KISS principle as well so logic would suggest it would have been easy to cut a door in the central leg particualrly as they could also strengthen the surround at the same time.


- The gap between the director and tripod is very small such that there would not appear to be room for a door to open so if sliding doors were used this would facilitate access. A door would be necessary as if just an opening when steaming at speed 26 knots ionto a 10 knot wind you would get a blast of air down the leg at 36 knots!


- One further curiosity is the design of the director itself as the top part was free to rotate which would inturn mean access would be through a short door, or the roof but there are no ladders for access. My ussunmption would therfore be there would have been a crawl door in the lower fixed part of the director for access.


- There is another mystery as well as I seem to recall reading the book Invincible by Tarrant that during the Falklands action an 8.2" shell detonated in the left strut leg and the blast went up knocking the officer in the spotting top over no damage but he missed the fall of Invincible's shot! Now this would suggest there was a way up the legs unless he means where the legs joined there was a gap so blast could dhoot up!


I don't think we are going to find a definitive answer but I doubt if there is anybody arround who can say "that bits's wrong!".




I've posted some updated pictures on "Invincible Too" for state of play as of Sunday.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

derekwarner_decoy

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 7,854
  • Location: Wollongong Australia
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #238 on: March 11, 2019, 10:47:39 PM »

Geoff & Nick........I have been reading & watching the daily postings on the access to the Director, and without any clear evidence conclude


1. the manning/crewing of the Director flat would have been Specialist Ratings and supervised by at least one Officer
2. the agility of these Officers and Men would have been such that they were capable to climb to the Director flat in all weathers and sea conditions
3. from this, access to the Director flat must logically have been via internal stair sets  within the leg structures
4. the external ladder footing shown would have been for Deck Ratings for external maintenance/rigging/flag clearing


I have used the term Specialist Ratings loosely as I don not know the actual name of this new classification, as they would have been trained in Gunnery, Navigation and basic triangulation


A few images of HMAS Australia [J Brown 1915] with the Director installed follow...although not visible, the FWD legs of the mast do have external stair sets


Derek
Logged
Derek Warner

Honorary Secretary [Retired]
Illawarra Live Steamers Co-op
Australia
www.ils.org.au

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #239 on: March 15, 2019, 06:44:20 PM »

Hi Derek


Thanks for the pictures, as they say, every little helps. :-))


Geoff


Iíve highlighted in red in the pictures below all the manholes on the 1909 fore top and the later fore top possibly from 1914. The later version has quite a few manholes and itís the one thatís offset from
The centre one that could be the manhole leading down to the director platform. See what you think.


AABF87-B3-3-C90-4-CE9-B3-E4-07-A8-F1-FCA0-CD" border="0 DAD6-EBD9-CC6-F-439-D-83-DC-5-D27-B245-ACD1" border="0
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #240 on: March 19, 2019, 02:00:09 PM »

Nick,


Good catch! Whilst I have these plans I had not noticed the additional manhole cover in the floor. This would certainly confirm an access route but I have never seen a picture which shows a ladder unless it was a rope ladder, which candidly would be challenging in a seaway at 25 knots into a 15 knot wind. I'll recheck what pictures I have now that I know there may be something there. I still tend to thnk a sliding door in the main strut would be the sensible route so maybe there was both, which would make sense.


Not much further progress on my iInvincible. I have made and fitted lots of mushroom ventialtors to the edge of the hull. I have so much to do I'm not sure where to start but I may have a go at detailing the funnels.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

dodes

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 598
  • Location: Hampshire
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #241 on: April 02, 2019, 06:02:21 PM »

Hi Nick, remember reading an article some years ago about fitting gun director platforms on dreadnoughts, one note was that after a days steaming the hollow masts used to get so hot that the gunnery officer was unable to get down on the internal ladders in the tubes  and his food etc was sent up on a hoist. Though I think this was on the ones where the directors were fitted some time after build as they put on the foremast over or just behind the funnel.
Logged

Geoff

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 652
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #242 on: Yesterday at 01:23:50 PM »

Nick,


I seem to rememeber you were looking for a picture of a cooling machine for Invincible. I have found a picture in a long lost and found book - Janes 1914. At the begining of these books a large number of manufacturers advertised their wares and some have pictures. It may not be specific but the adverts may be a good source of information.


Cheers


Geoff
Logged

raflaunches

  • Full Mayhemer
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 2,468
  • The Penguins are coming!!!
  • Location: Back in the UK, Kettering, Northants
Re: HMS Invincible- The First Battlecruiser
« Reply #243 on: Yesterday at 01:38:56 PM »

Hi Geoff


Thanks for the info, ironically Iím just starting in that area on my forward superstructure build, just working out the searchlight platform behind the second funnel. Iím waiting for paint to dry as Iíve finished painting the corticene on the forward superstructure coaling winch deck.
Hopefully some pictures soon as soon as Iíve made progress.
Logged
Nick B

Help! The penguins have stolen my sanity, and my hot water bottle!

Illegitimi non carborundum!
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 [10]   Go Up