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Author Topic: Pre-paint finishing advice.  (Read 2831 times)

NFMike

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Pre-paint finishing advice.
« on: November 06, 2012, 11:06:49 PM »

I've got to a stage where I've done all my major work on a hull, filled and sanded as best I could see and have now given it a coat of primer, so I can see clearly what is not right. There are two classes of blemish I need to deal with.


One is getting a decent finish. I've used P38 and then filled the blemishes in that with Squadron white. However, after priming I have quite a few bits like this:


This pic covers an area a few inches across. My instinct is to use more Squadron on it, but would something else be better?


The other area is where the sterntubes exit the hull:



What you see between tube and hull is mostly epoxy with some P38 at the lower left (the rougher texture). Obviously I'd like to improve the shape and finish here, but it's an awkward place to work. Minidrill with dental burrs comes to mind, but I'm not keen on that idea. Any magic advice?

Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2012, 11:22:50 PM »

Right then take a piece of ADVISE throw the squadron Putty and the P38 into the nearest BIN ..RANT over.
 
Houston we have a problem springs to mind,
 
1st course of ACTION.....trip down to Halfords to buy some EASYLIGHT or TOP STOP
 
Rub the hull down in the affected areas with 80 grit and GET rid of ALL the squadron putty and all the affected areas ,NOW fill with the filler I have reccomended,read all about how to do it in the sticky thread in this section
 
You DO NOT need the squadron putty at all the filler that I have reccomended is far superior than P38 you DO NOT have to use a dremel or any other tool all you need to do is to rub it down and that's all.Read the guide on how to do it right.
 
 
Dave
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2012, 09:30:58 AM »

Is there a problem with the use of Squadron filler. I am having a dispute about its use with a mate. The theory is it is 'gassing' in direct sunlight and causing problems with the surface finish, sound possible or are we on the wrong track?
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Spook

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2012, 02:10:17 PM »

I found that Squadron white putty is a great filler for small gaps & blemishes. It dries quickly and is easy to sand and shape once dry, but it's simply not designed for big filling jobs - it's a finishing filler - anything more than a gap of 2 or 3 mm and it's no use whatsoever. 
I use quite a lot of it when I have cut a deck to size in a tight hull and have to fill small gaps around the outside where I have cut/sanded unevenly. I you look closely at some of my build threads you will see what I mean.  :-))
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Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2012, 03:37:06 PM »


Is there a problem with the use of Squadron filler. I am having a dispute about its use with a mate. The theory is it is 'gassing' in direct sunlight and causing problems with the surface finish, sound possible or are we on the wrong track?

Yes you are CORRECT in what you are saying that is WHY I keep banging  on about Easy light or Top Stop if you read what I have said in the paint tutorial it explains it there But I wll repeat
 
Either or are superb fillers in their own right neither is better than the other,it is used in Bodyshops for filler or to FILL SMALL imperfections and is so so EASY to sand,P38 is OLD HAT and is only used to fill lage dents(not in MY bodyshop).
The main trouble with P38 and others that fall into this catagory is simle they do pin prick as they dry this is caused by the chemical reaction of the hardener and paste.Either or of the Fillers that I have reccomended do NOT do this at all.
 
Using squadron putty and the like is OLD hat and will cause you PROBLEMS.....WHY....simples really,Any filler is 2 part and Squadron relies on AIR drying and also one bad habit it has is it shrinks,especially when you apply any type of aerosol primer to it.
 
Come on Gentlemen think about it do you see Body shops in htis day and age using single pack stoppers........No and the reason why is simple....single Air drying products take to long to dry and cause paint problems.
 
One major Problem wiht painting is using Wet/Dry as primer absorbbs water and unless you heat the Hull to a terrific temp you will NEVER get the dampness out,you might THINK you have and IT WORKS FOR ME ETC ETC ETC .
 
Time and time again I see problems with painting and it simply caise by one thing OPERATOR error,this is why I ADVOCATE DRY rubbing down of the hulls etc,the only time you will see wet/dry used in body shops is to colour sand areas that need paint rectification.If you think about it the amount of Wet?dry everyone uses on each model is rather a lot and EXPENSIVE.
 
The average price on Ebay for abox of 50 velcro discs is around a Tenner 8 sheets of Wet?dry in Halfords costs a lot more than this.If you are worried about how much Discs cost hten why not get a load of your club members together and buy 4 or 5 different grades of grit and share them.In any case DA discs used DRY will outlast wet/dry,or why not go along to your friendly local body shop and ask the lads for some and offer them a tenner for the tea fund.
 
If I sound to be bombastic anout this well I appologise now but one hting is very clear to me ....I AM RIGHT O0 O0
So the Moral of this is throw the Squadron putty away stop using the P38 or any other filler and start using what I reccoment.....................WHY do I say this
 
 
WELL IT IS PROVEN AND IT WORKS :-)) O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0 O0
 
 
Dave
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2012, 04:47:46 PM »

All I can add to this is the following; Squadron Filler does 'weld' to styrene where normal aotomotive fillers just hang on for dear life to the roughened surface, so it has some uses. I think I have encountered if dropping off of a wooden boat where it had been used below the waterline, so wouldn't like to speak for its water tight integrity. I will use it where it is the more suitable filler though.
Your lessons on how to fill and sand have reaped the first positive result. The following model was dry sanded only ( admittedly with 'wet and dry' paper, cos I had it already ), and as you can see it looks great. The big box behind was painted using somewhat different techniques though :}

 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2012, 05:09:28 PM »

Quote
The big box behind was painted using somewhat different techniques though
I bet the inside needed a helluva lot of rolls of wallpaper though.....
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Subculture

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2012, 05:14:54 PM »

I use upol easylite, but I also use 3M acryl red spot putty, which is air dry, but shrinks very little. I only use the spot putty for very fine filling, comes in a big tube like toothpaste.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3m-Acryl-Red-Glazing-Putty-05098-409g-/160470924859

One tube lasts a modelmaker a long time.

unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2012, 05:16:59 PM »

Got the maths on that one totally wrong....four times outside face....loads more inside {:-{ Bl+++dy dimensions, their all 'relative'.
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NFMike

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2012, 06:22:01 PM »

OK Dave. Thanks for the suggestions. In my defence I've been using P38 because Model Slipway suggest it in the instructions for the kit and I had no reason to disbelieve them, and your sticky thread (which I had read) doesn't say it's rubbish so I just carried on with it.

However I did see a post a few days ago about the other two you recommend (probably your post but I can't remember where it was now) and while I was in Halfords getting the primer (before I started this thread) I had a look. Unfortunately they only had one big tin of Easylite (i think) on the shelf (prob about 500ml) and since I only need a small amount to finish this part of the project I left it there - sorry. I'll have to have a look at other shops - no big rush as I'm carrying on with other bits of the build for now.

Can you explain 'filler primer'? What and why? From what I've read it's kind of 'thick' primer, but it sounds like it would be horrible for losing detail and a bit of a cop out from doing a proper prep on the surface.

NFMike

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2012, 08:23:52 PM »

Hmm. Just been Googling easylite and it looks like the big tub (750ml, not 500) is the only size available. I've heard that P38 dries out (over many months) once opened - is this likely to be the same?

Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2012, 08:44:10 PM »

Must admit I haven't had any problems with easy light drying out,I used some the other day in my shed that was over 12mnth old and YES it was slightly stiffer than a fresh one BUTY was totally usable and spreadable with NO problem,s at all.
 
As for filler primer it is exactly what it says,it is a slightly thicker primer than the ordinary primer,in this day and age of modern matterials it is a delight to use and does fill imperfections BUT does NOT loose you detail UNL|ESS of course you are daft enough to load it on to a hull that has got plates on and it is simply your own fault if you loose detail.
 
As every primer is porous I DO NOT advocate using wet/dry on it regardless of members saying it works for me.....a fav quote on here and other forums  {-) {-) You can get as good if BETTER finish using dry DA discs they are available in grads as high as 2500 grit.
 
Mike as you so rightly stated in your posting there is no substitute for PROPER preparation.You can still if you do so wish go down the grades dry as you used to using wet/dry papers,as I said in my thread this is all the grits I personally use whether using the professional products that are available to myself in the garage or using Halfords aerosols,which I will soon prove to you all in a thread that I am compiling on a build of a Deans Marine kit.
 
Dave
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Subculture

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2012, 04:08:05 PM »

I've noticed that you can purchase upol products in foil packs with screwtops now (like a big toothpaste tube) as opposed to a metal container, which tend to distort with repeated opening and closing, thus allowing air in.
 

 
I think these will probably better at keeping the filler fresh.

Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2012, 07:39:39 PM »

Thats the stuff TOP man for finding that one,I dint even think of looking for it in foil packs IDEAL for you modellers,as I use the tins and they dont hang around for long !!!!.
 
 
Could you possibly provide a link so everyone can get hold of it Please
 
 
Dave
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Subculture

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2012, 08:36:37 PM »

Well that was from an ebay link- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UPOL-TOP-STOP-GOLD-FILLER-STOPPER-U-POL-GOLD-STOPPER-U-POL-TOP-STOPGOLD-1L-BAG-T-/180986800269?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item2a23a7688d

But if you do a search online there are other stores that sell the stuff in foil packs. 440ml seems to be the smallest size available. I've noticed that Upol do stuff called 'dolphin glaze', which is twin pack stopper, that looks interesting for model use, may order some up.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UPOL-Dolphin-Glaze-Brushable-Stopper-440ml-/321007750108?pt=UK_Body_Shop_Supplies_Paint&hash=item4abd8d8bdc

Spook

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2012, 12:08:17 AM »

Using squadron putty and the like is OLD hat and will cause you PROBLEMS.....WHY....simples really,Any filler is 2 part and Squadron relies on AIR drying and also one bad habit it has is it shrinks,especially when you apply any type of aerosol primer to it.
 

Stavros, are we talking about the same thing here?

This is the stuff I use for filling small gaps. It is not 2 part and has never shrunk when Halfords aerosol acrylic or Humbrol enamel paint (or Humbrol Varnish) was applied. I have used it on all of my boats, without exception as I am a messy so and so when it comes to cutting and trimming and it's never given me any problems. It's a dream to use and covers a multitude of my very naughty model making sins.
 
As for P38 - I bought some from Halfords for a fairly big (well, in boat modelling terms) job and am now the proud owner of NO hardener and about 90% of a tube of unused P38 resin. I will not be using P38 again but Squadron FTW. :-)
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Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2012, 12:20:37 AM »

Yes we are sorry BUT it WILL and does cause problems it is OK with PLASTIC but on wood grp it does cause problems,if it didnt dont you think Body shops would use it for fine scratches,why do you think 99% of the bodyshops in th eik have gone over to Easy light/top stop/3m/wurth to name a few products simples really,not only do they work but also to get a quality repair which in fact funnily enough applies to model boats.....OH by the way never had a problem with Easylight sticking to plastic  O0
As for having NO hardener sorry to say this but you have OVER catalised the filler,you DO NOT need loads of the hardener to set it off trust me even in winter I do not up the quantity needed.Halfods do sell extra hardener
 
Dave
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Stavros

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Re: Pre-paint finishing advice.
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2012, 12:23:20 AM »

Subculture thanks for posting the links ...Yes I do know of the other but sorry cant tell you what it is like as I have never used it
 
 
Dave
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