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Author Topic: Lateen rigging  (Read 7397 times)

tigertiger

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Lateen rigging
« on: May 12, 2007, 04:26:14 AM »

Does anybody have a digram on how to rig a lanteen sail.

The sail needs to move from one side of the mast to the other when changing tack. I have attached a pic to give a better idea of the problem.

I have a few ideas, but all have their own secondary (even tertiary) problems.

The boat is a little bit different to the photo, more like the diagram.

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tobyker

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2007, 11:17:51 AM »

You show the sail being lifted up to tack. I don't think it is - I suspect it is lowered, shifted aft resting on the crutch that all lateen rigged boats/ships have at the stern, then hooshed forward and raised again. This could represent an interesting problem in sail control, and should only need about three winches. The lateen originated in the Arabian sea where each trading journey could be accomplished on one tack. Bring back lateen mizzen topsails, I say.
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tigertiger

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2007, 01:05:28 PM »

You are probably correct, as I was only guessing how it might be achieved.

I may get on with another project now.

The original plan was for a motorised dhow, it is mis-sold on one website as suitable for motor and sail. But the plan says it is not.

I may be trying to flog a dead horse.

I doubt it will sail well on the wrong side of the mast.

Even if I rigged her as a lugg.
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romainpek

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2007, 01:33:28 PM »

As far as I know, lateen rigging has a good and a bad tack side on a given day.
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tobyker

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2007, 10:06:51 PM »

nice picture - I think that's the western version of the lateen, much used on sailing canoes, where you can get away with a wrongsided tack. However on the Arab original, far more of the sail is forward of the mast, and you have to change sides IF you want to tack - which dhows hardly ever did!
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tigertiger

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2007, 03:41:39 AM »

I am still thinking about my original idea.
Althought he method is note 'real', it may solve the change of tack problem.
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romainpek

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2007, 04:39:17 AM »

A simple solution : why not a double mast ?
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romainpek

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2007, 05:00:48 AM »

Another solution : the tilting rig ! you release the Jib stay and pull the back stay, the prow of the boat becomes the stern. You tack without turning too much.
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romainpek

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2007, 05:02:32 AM »

Similar solution : the swinging rig ! just pivot the sail 180 degrees to tack
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malcolmfrary

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2007, 11:36:24 PM »

I tried a sort of split lateen rig some time ago.  A mate called it a felluca, or something that sounded like that.  Instead of one sail, there was a foresail before the mast, and a main behind.  There was a lower boom, and a loose upper boom.  Rigging was very easy, one line to the winch, one line to raise the upper boom, side stays so that the thing coud be easily picked up without pulling the mast out.
With a few degrees of rake on the mast it performed reasonably well, much like a swing rig, which is what it really was, but the conventional rig showed why it was conventional.  It worked better.
A working lateen rig will probably offer the same problems as the AC boats - observing them on Sky should be illuminating when they gybe the spinnacker and handle the boom.
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dreadnought72

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2007, 12:53:11 PM »

Does anybody have a digram on how to rig a lanteen sail.

The sail needs to move from one side of the mast to the other when changing tack.

My copy of (the otherwise excellent) "Cogs, Caravels and Galleons" suggests that Medieval lateen-rigged ships, used in the Med., almost did what your diagram suggests, but instead swung the sail and yard in front of the mast to tack. So, presumably, you'd wear 270 degrees to help get the sail across, rather than tack. Which seems a little unlikely.

Not quite sure how you deal with the forestay in that instance, but there you go.

Andy
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tobyker

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2007, 08:03:20 PM »

well possibly - wearing ship was a recognised manoeuvre and I was surprised to see in the Vasa museum a diorama of the Vasa tacking rather than wearing ship. (What was even more interesting was a replica of the steering station showing the steersman who was well below deck on the end of his whipstaff with a very restricted range of movement, on a very long tiller connected to a remarkably small rudder.) So the steering basically only operated a trim tab, and the ship must have been steered mainly by the sails. So whether she tacked or wore, it must have been a very slow business.  Mind you she probably did neither in her half-mile career, though apparently her sister ship with a metre more beam was quite successful. (This post eligible for this thread as she had a lateen mizzen.)
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dreadnought72

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #12 on: June 28, 2007, 12:04:45 PM »

An aside first:
... I was surprised to see in the Vasa museum a diorama of the Vasa tacking rather than wearing ship.
I agree with you regarding the relatively ineffectual rudder: that said, tacking's just possible under sail alone if you have enough way on to back your headsails as you point into the wind - though wearing is always going to be the easy option with a square sail.

But back to the lateen - I note that, like your stern crutch mentioned in #2 - the Medieval ships often sported twin stern horns which, presumably, could have had a similar purpose. "Rest the boom on while the yard's pulled across behind the mast". Though that doesn't help with the two and three masted lateen-rigged ships...hmmm. I need to think more about this!

Andy
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tobyker

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #13 on: June 28, 2007, 02:32:04 PM »

I think to tack the lateen you drop the lot on the main halyard, bundle it all up on the yard and boom if you have one, drag it all aft until the fwd end of the yard has cleared the mast, run it all fwd the other side of the mast, and hoist away again. I reckon you counld do this on the deck with the main and fore sails - if you had multiple lateen sails, but for the mizzen or main if its the only one, you will either clout the steersman on the head , or drop the lot over the stern, if you don't have the crutch to rest it on. I had a lateen on the coleman canoe, but never bothered changing sides with it.
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dreadnought72

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #14 on: June 28, 2007, 03:05:12 PM »

Your method of tacking, which makes sense to me, would require temporarily removing the halyard for the fore sail yard of a typical Medieval two masted lateen-rigged ship, in order for the yard to be moved across the back of the aft mast, when swapping sides. Easily done in real life - but not via R/C.

Lifting the yards vertically in order to swap sides with the yard, would have the benefit of requiring less effort (fewer people needed since there's no lower and hoist, and tilting the yard is not hard if it's slung near the midpoint) and could be done with R/C.

I definitely need to see how this is done with fellucas and dhows today.

Andy
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tobyker

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #15 on: June 28, 2007, 10:28:26 PM »

I don't follow that. No bundle has to be moved any further aft than to get clearance between the forward end of the yard and its own mast. Why should the fore halyard need to go round the aft mast? I accept that the free end may need to be thrown over the yard to avoid  spoiling the airflow over the sail, but presumably we could avoid that by belaying it to the bulwark rail. This is all getting so complicated that i'd better put a dhow (or cog?) on the list of things to do in order to work it out.

Nice talking to you, Andy. Toby.
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Robert Davies

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #16 on: June 28, 2007, 11:35:35 PM »

I definitely need to see how this is done with fellucas and dhows today.

Sail? what's that?

Diesel all the way today ;)



Same hull design though :) With a little hacking and gouging to fit the propshaft and swooshy and oily bits.

The Creek in Dubai btw.
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Telstar

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2007, 11:18:37 AM »

Hi
On the upper Nile Fellucas (mentioned by malcolmfry) are the standard river traffic (both used by the locals and used to give tourist trips). For normal short tacks, they didn't bother to change the sail, boom etc. to the other side of the mast. However with some of the larger ferries (back and forth across the river) when they stopped at the bank, the sail, boom etc. was hauled vertical, in line with the mast, while unloading/loading, and when lowered again, it was on the downwind side of the mast for that trip. The tourist Fellucas were tied up waiting, with the boom, sail and yard (if thats the correct term for the big pole on top of the sail) all hoisted up vertical in line with the mast, when lowering, bottom end of the yard was attached to a chain that was fixed to the hull, allowing some side to side movement while not allowing it to lift.
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tobyker

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2007, 11:10:08 PM »

Thanks Telstar - that is interesting (good photos) - In sailing barge terms I suppose the felucca sails are "brailed up" but it is clever to let them down on the other side for the tack back. I suppose this supports tt's proposed method of doing it, but I don't think it happens that way on a dhow for two reasons:

1. it would be vey dodgy brailing the yard right up vertical at sea, or in the middle of a lake/river as it would have you straight over if a gust hit, and

2. I suspect the dhow sail has a far longer yard than the felucca, to the extent that it might not be physically possible to get the yard vertical without the fwd end of it hitting the deck.

But I still think the whole point about this rig is that unless you are very unlucky or bold, you simply do not tack except in port - the rig is used where prevailing winds give you a reach to wherever you want to go, and if the wind isn't right, you wait until it is.

Have we no members in the gulf who could advise us, or possibly someone in the Merchant Marine who has seen dhows on their home ground? Mind you this is such an interesting discussion that a DS solution might ruin it.
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Telstar

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2007, 11:51:19 PM »

Hi Tobyker
Is a Dhow bigger than a Felucca? There were some working boats heavily laden much larger with bigger sails etc. but the yard was still anchored above deck level. Some were so deep in the water there decks were almost awash (only about a foot of freeboard). This boat passed us on a broad reach, and I'm not sure what the aft mast is for.
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dreadnought72

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Re: Lanteen rigging
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2007, 09:59:39 AM »

I don't follow that. No bundle has to be moved any further aft than to get clearance between the forward end of the yard and its own mast. Why should the fore halyard need to go round the aft mast?
Reading our comments make me realise that this would be so much easier to explain with a diagram, or a bit of hand-waving!

The iconography of the Medieval two-masted ships tends to show both masts relatively close together - much closer than the length of either yard - which would mean that the only way to drop the foreyard and change sides during a tack, would require that yard to pass behind the mainmast.

Looking at the fellucas on the Nile, lifting the yard to vertical makes sense to me - and especially so since this doesn't interfere with a forestay or introduce the hassles of flipping the canvas across the boat in front of the mast, as inferred in the book I cited.

Good to have your input and thoughts, Toby - many thanks!
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tobyker

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2007, 11:41:05 PM »

Right, gotcha - the problem being that if you carried the fore sail bundle back until you could thread the nose of the yard between the masts, you'd have to then carry it so far forward for the aft end of the yard to clear the rear mast. All of which I think adds force to the argument that you only set sail in one of these things if there was a nice gentle wind blowing in exactly the right direction, so all the scenery-shifting could take place in port, as with Telstar's Nile feluccas. (wonder if SWMBO fancies a look at Luxor?) Wouldn't it be wonderful to have a time machine, to go back and see how they did it?  I suspect the answer to our queries would be "gorblimey no, guv, we does it like this" - in some Mediterranean lingua franca. Equally, I can see a would-be traveller standing on the quay at Marseilles asking for a passage to genoa (or wherever) and getting the reply - "we don't go there mate, wrong kind of wind".
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Brooks

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2007, 09:11:03 AM »

John Harland discusses lateen rigs, including tacking, in "Ships and Seamanship - The Maritime Prints of JJ Baugean", pg 11-13. Best to read his full description, but I'll try to summarize. His method A: lower the halyard part way and dip yard behind the mast (looks like your diagram). Method B: peak up the yard to near vertical, and bring the sail around in front of the mast and yard. There are subtle differences in rigging the yard to allow A or B, which he describes in detail.

I received my copy from sea-room.com, since I live in the US. There is probably a dealer in Great Britain for you.

http://www.sea-room.com/
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dreadnought72

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2007, 12:10:02 PM »

Hi Brooks - thanks for your input.

The (precious few) images of Medieval lateen rigged ships always seem to show:

  • masts that have a pronounced forward rake
  • multiple port & starboard shrouds
  • no forestay

A bit like this, but often with two masts.



Given that's the case, it sounds like your Method B is the one - as long as the shrouds meet the mast just below the yard halyard, so that the close-hauled ability of the rig remains. Now - how to R/C it?!!

Andy
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Jimmy James

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Re: Lateen rigging
« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2008, 09:36:03 PM »

There are two kinds of lateen sail (Haulyard runs forward  through a block or sheeve to the yard)
1) is the settee lateen which has a short luff very much like a lugsail the usual way to tack it is to haul the yard up as far as it will go and attach a single luff tackle (Double & single block) to the forward end of the yard and run it aft on the lee side of the mast and hook it into a strop or ringbolt approx 3 or 4 feet aft of the mast
2) a stopper is then put on the haulyard and the vessel is brought into the wind.
3)As the head comes through the wind the tack line is let go and you heave on the tackle tipping the yard vertical and passing the butt of the yard around the mast.
4) As the Butt of the yard comes clear of the mast you carry the luff line around the mast and re attach it to the luff hook
5) on some vessels you then shift the haulyard to the weather side(the reason for the stopper)other vessels have doubled haulyards and don't need to shift them .
6) as the vessels head pays off you slack the luff tackle and allow the yard to lower into its sailing position and slack off the haulyard to get the correct hight then sheet home and your off...
THE ARIBIC or MOORISH lateen almost always has a forward raking mast and is usually smaller than the settee lateen ( The haulyard runs from aft through a block to the yard);to tack it you...
1) Bring the vessel into the wind and drop the peak of the sail (The upper section of the sail is not laced to the yard but runs up and down the yard on iron rings like mast hoops
2) Hook a luff tackle to the butt of the yard and haul the yard vertical
3) because of the forward rake of the mast it is Farley easy to dip the yard around the fore side of the mast
4) whan the yard is in the correct position for
 the new tack the sheet let go and the entire sail is pulled around the fore side of the mast onto the other tack and the sheet is reattached
5) as the ships head passes through the wind the luff tackle is slacked away and when the luff line has the weight of the yard you hoist the peak of the sail ,sheet home and your off,
   With a well drilled crew this is done very quickly but its not as quick as tacking a gaff rig and can be a real handfull en heavy weather which is why the la teen is not used as the main driving sails on larger European ships

Regards Freebooter (Jimmy)
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