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Author Topic: wind turbines  (Read 3171 times)

slug

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wind turbines
« on: December 20, 2012, 06:52:03 PM »

it seems now that wind turbines only have a life of 10-15 years. why cant a water turbine be put under a bridge arch,plenty of fast flowing rivers??? slug
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Umi_Ryuzuki

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Allnightin

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2012, 08:08:53 PM »

it seems now that wind turbines only have a life of 10-15 years.
What was the source of the bit about a life of 10-15 years?  I work in the sector and there are plenty in UK approaching their second complete decade.   Decent ones that are retired early to upgrade the site to larger ones fetch a good price on the second hand market.
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gingyer

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2012, 08:11:20 PM »

I read the report today
I would like to say I was shocked they were only going to last 15 years
Then I rembered Siemens were involved so I am more surprised they have
Something that lasts that long :-X :-X


I know they are putting small hydro schemes into operation which feeds of
Small streams and will power a few houses as opposed to large scale hydro schemes using rivers.
Easier on the environment
 
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Arrow5

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2012, 08:23:51 PM »

The local/national power supplier in Scotland is called Hydro-Electric for that very reason. They have turbines fed from dammed rivers and lochs. One of the oldest and cheapest forms of generation.  Many estates in the Highlands have mini turbines in fast flowing streams and rivers.   Tidal flow on the coast of Europe`s barriers and sea defences have underwater turbines that use the incoming and outgoing tides to generate electricity.  I imagine much heavier engineering goes into those and wonder what the life of the machinery is.
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Allnightin

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2012, 08:26:21 PM »

Oh I found it anyway.
A report from that well known objective institution the Reeable Energy Foundation as blogged by Tory Aardvark:
            "Conservatve Political Blogger, Climate Realist, Tea Party supporter and NRA member. I dont buy into the Man Made Global Warming Scam, science is never settled."
So that's true then?
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gingyer

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2012, 08:33:04 PM »

Oh I found it anyway.
A report from that well known objective institution the Reeable Energy Foundation as blogged by Tory Aardvark:
            "Conservatve Political Blogger, Climate Realist, Tea Party supporter and NRA member. I dont buy into the Man Made Global Warming Scam, science is never settled."
So that's true then?

Probably half truths, you know the type get half a story then make the rest up  :-))
 
Like you working in the industry and worked on 2 of the biggest windfarms, I think they are a joke!!
the big push is not to get them working but "ENERGISED" when we construct them as soon as they are deemed
ENERGISED then the operator starts coining it in in the form of grants etc. they dont care if they work that can happen later  :o
you seriously have to wonder if they gave the nuclear industry the same level of grants they have given to the
wind power industry what they could of developed to reduce radio active waste.
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Colin Bishop

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2012, 08:36:43 PM »

The Rance Barrage in Brittany was completed in 1966 has has been producing tidal energy since then. We usually drive over it several times a year and it is a very impressive piece of engineering. The two way turbines are controlled in a very clever way so that it produces energy for most of the tidal cycle.
 
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/678082/how_france_eclipsed_the_uk_with_brittany_tidal_success_story.html
 
I'm not impressed with wind turbines, they are quite inefficient (especially when manufacturing costs are taken into account), visually obtrusive and don't produce power when it is most needed such as during a cold spell of high pressure when there is no wind.
 
Colin
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Jerry C

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2012, 08:50:32 PM »

I helped put a water turbine in Strangford Narrows a while ago. At the time it was worlds largest. Comprised of two windmills under water. I haven't heard how well it's performing. Just looked on google maps but couldn't see it.
Jerry.

RAAArtyGunner

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2012, 08:57:38 PM »

The Rance Barrage in Brittany was completed in 1966 has has been producing tidal energy since then. We usually drive over it several times a year and it is a very impressive piece of engineering. The two way turbines are controlled in a very clever way so that it produces energy for most of the tidal cycle.
 
http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/678082/how_france_eclipsed_the_uk_with_brittany_tidal_success_story.html
 
I'm not impressed with wind turbines, they are quite inefficient (especially when manufacturing costs are taken into account), visually obtrusive and don't produce power when it is most needed such as during a cold spell of high pressure when there is no wind.

Colin

Which is why any wind driven device such as roof mounted extractors are also not efficient as they don't ventilate/extract on very hot 'still' days.
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BrianB6

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2012, 09:18:32 PM »

Carew Mill is an early C19 Tidal Corn Mill with two wheels and a vast 23 acre millpond, part of Carew Castle site so there is nothing new in tidal power.
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slug

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 07:27:16 AM »

thank you for the replies,on the river trent we have large wiers which seem to have plenty of water running over them most of the year--wasted power.old water wheels produced a lot of power for the old mills,they could develope anew version ,i think we have more water power than wind power....slug
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TailUK

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 09:41:46 AM »

Does anyone remember the "nodding ducks"?  A guy called Slater came up with the idea and did some research including a prototype.  When cheap oil came in in the 80s the idea was backburnered.  What interested me was the claim that the cost was estimated to so high that it was uneconomical.  It later turned out that the cost had been overestimated and Slater's funding got "lost" in the system.  The fund and estimates were controlled by a group called The Energy Technology Support Unit which at the time was an offshoot of.....
 
The United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority!
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slug

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 07:53:12 PM »

just read that 2 turbines on the river trent nr nottingham have been overturned by fishermen having poor access to the river, slug
     
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NFMike

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 08:44:39 PM »

thank you for the replies,on the river trent we have large wiers which seem to have plenty of water running over them most of the year--wasted power.old water wheels produced a lot of power for the old mills,they could develope anew version ,i think we have more water power than wind power....slug
I think people over-estimate the power available from such locations. Those old water wheels probably only produced a few horsepower. which is just a few kW. The cost of building, connecting and maintaining a generator to deliver such a small amount of power to the grid would almost certainly not be economical these days.

gondolier88

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2012, 09:25:53 PM »

I think people over-estimate the power available from such locations. Those old water wheels probably only produced a few horsepower. which is just a few kW. The cost of building, connecting and maintaining a generator to deliver such a small amount of power to the grid would almost certainly not be economical these days.


Not quite true, the torque delivered through a waterwheel is immense, and produced with a relatively small amount of water. So yes, although the horsepower is small, the useable power is high, however the downfall of electric generation is that the low rpm of a waterwheel (or windmill, or archimedes screw...) has to be coverted to high rpm to generate power efficiently. There are now some very clever power output controllers out there that allow numerous constant variations in generation rpm (a large, but typical archimedean screw installation near us turns 250rpm at source, with around 16,000rpm at the generator.) Keeping the gearbox cool and running efficiently is one thing, but when .5rpm at source represents a few hundred rpm at the generator, in order to deliver a useable and constant electrical current a very sophisticated controller is required. The gearbox and controller on the installation mentioned represented about 1/5 of the cost of the whole plant!


A water driven plant is extremely difficult to make efficient at powers of 50Kw or less, which is out of the budget range of the majority of people on a quest for sustainable energy production.


It is interesting that a local company who specialise in the design and installation of water driven generating plant estimate that there are 400+ viable small generating sites in Cumbria alone.


However, until funding is available for this particular sector of small scale power generation (at least to a point matching the faddish and dated photovoltaic and to a lesser extent, wind power) the situation won't be changing any time soon. It is relatively easy to put together a fairly efficient plant from existing technology on a 'shoestring' budget (around 800 per Kw), but it takes time, and has been proven again and again the plant relies as much on a well engineered river site, properly controlled flow rate, and reliable and self cleaning termination and re-entry to the watercourse as it does on a well designed and installed plant.


It is a fascinating and inspiring niche in power generation, and one that used to be the only way people could produce large amounts of power for long durations- we can learn a lot from past technologies in using water power. Interestingly one of the longest and best known water power engineering firms in Europe- namely Gilkes of Kendal- supplied the water turbines for the bobbin mill behind our house over 150 years ago, and they are still at the leading edge of research and design of new water turbines.


An interesting point that heard on a programme a couple of years ago was that the super complex system of watercourses, dams, leats, pipelines, turbine halls and raceways installed in land of the Scots are used as back-up only when conventional power stations are struggling because they have the unique advantage of being able to run up to full power from zero rpm at the push of a button, and will run as long as required, then being able to be shut off as soon as they are not needed- something that is very difficult to do with any heat engine driven power plant as bands of efficiency require constant rpm and heat exchange in order to produce power at optimum efficiency, as well as keeping the machinery in as best possible condition.


Greg
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tigertiger

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2012, 02:58:27 AM »

There may also be a side issue with the water companies wanting something in return for using their resource. This was a problem for a neighbour of ours back in 1993. At that time the water company wanted something, but did not have a business model to work out what they wanted.
I am not sure what the current situation is in the UK, regarding the water companies. Hopefully they have decided it is an area that they won't exploit.

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malcolmfrary

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2012, 09:51:12 AM »

There may also be a side issue with the water companies wanting something in return for using their resource. This was a problem for a neighbour of ours back in 1993. At that time the water company wanted something, but did not have a business model to work out what they wanted.
I am not sure what the current situation is in the UK, regarding the water companies. Hopefully they have decided it is an area that they won't exploit.
Yes, back in the early days of privatisations whichever water company it was got north Wales wanted to cash in on Dinorwig's use of water - something equal to about the national debt per day, even though the water never left company premises, so to speak.  Under their logic, any small private system would be charged for water entering the site, and then charged for "used" water draining from the site.  I don't know if this ever did fully apply.
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Allnightin

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2012, 10:03:58 AM »

Yes, back in the early days of privatisations whichever water company it was got north Wales wanted to cash in on Dinorwig's use of water - something equal to about the national debt per day, even though the water never left company premises, so to speak.  Under their logic, any small private system would be charged for water entering the site, and then charged for "used" water draining from the site.  I don't know if this ever did fully apply.
The people who charge for water use on rivers are the Environment Agency for abstraction licences.  Fortunately they don't charge for hydro schemes -yet!
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tony52

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2012, 08:45:39 PM »



Archimedian Screw (fish friendly) water turbine which uses an existing weir on the River Irwell. Located on the Bury/Radcliffe border in Greater Manchester. I understand it feeds into the grid and provides enough power for 50 homes.

Tony
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slug

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2012, 10:25:17 PM »

interesting tony
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wibplus

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Re: wind turbines
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2012, 11:26:56 AM »



Archimedian Screw (fish friendly) water turbine which uses an existing weir on the River Irwell. Located on the Bury/Radcliffe border in Greater Manchester. I understand it feeds into the grid and provides enough power for 50 homes.

Tony
Thanks Tony, I drove past the site quite often during the alterations and was quite at a loss to figure out what they were doing.  :embarrassed:
Problem solved now, thanks.   :-))
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