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Author Topic: Staying true to the kit..... or not  (Read 8177 times)

chris gillespie

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Staying true to the kit..... or not
« on: January 17, 2013, 07:37:35 pm »

Whats the views on staying true to the kit, as opposed to real life
 
admittedley boats and vessels have small changes yearly and kit manufacturers couldnt possibly keep up.
 
Im currently making a maggie m from model slipway kit, the kit is decent however it looks nothing like the real thing and ive made alot of adjustments to get as real like as possible
 
So its fair to say mine will look similar to real thing however far removed from the kit and its instructions. This is my preference to be as real as possible
 
however i have betrayed the "KIT"........... lol
 
thoughts ?
 
cheers

heritorasphodel

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2013, 07:50:10 pm »

Sometimes it depends if there's a certain period you're trying to build the boat for. For example, the kit of the Scout Lifeboat specifically says that it is correct as to August 1994. If you want to build it at any other period then you'll have to modify the kit.


In my opinion, you don't have to stay particularly close to the kit, you could for instance build a different boat completely using the kit as a base. It's all up to you. I'm trying to build an MS Loyal Tender, and the only reason I'm sticking to the kit is I know nothing about the boat.


Andrew
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barriew

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2013, 07:53:52 pm »

I agree - there's no law that says you mustn't alter the kit. You bought it so its up to you, although it would be unreasonable to expect the manufacturer to help you out if your mods. go pear shaped ok2


Barrie
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2013, 08:00:39 pm »

good points  :-))
 
I just remember seeing a boat for sale on an auction site, and it was a kit from a well known maker however described as "highly modified" but actually looked quite realistic compared to the real thing.
 
The maggie m kit wouldnt have been fairly true to its time of production...going by the photos that the kit would have been based on. That is fair enough..however times change and its the builders preference whether to modify..
 
however is it a betrayal to kit, and indeed is mine now deemed highly modified even though its as realistic as the original would have been...lol
 
i have a thread running called decisions and more decisions, i have a fair few kits including a seabex which has gone through a number of large changes and ownerships.....would i betray one of the last few unbuild kits by modifying it
 
 %% {-) <*<

ardarossan

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2013, 08:19:41 pm »

A kit is just a pre-selected set of parts, with a set of instructions that generally indicate how to assemble them to get a representation of the illustration on the box.

There's nothing to say that is what you must do, and absolutely no reason that you shouldn't alter improve or modify anything to suit your own taste or experience.

If you were building a Kit Car, you would probably stay relatively true to the kit, but would include the particular options that appealed to you. So what's the difference?

It's your model, your time and your expense, so do whatever makes you feel happiest.

Andy
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2013, 08:25:10 pm »

Many kits have been 'modified' by the manufacturer to make them easier to manufacture! So feel free to make any modifications you like if you think that this will make it more realistic or true to the period you want to depict. The basic kit is very often just a starting point.
 
Colin
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mikearace

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2013, 08:29:27 pm »

All kits and all models are only representations of the real thing to a greater or lesser degree.  As long as your happy with your efforts its up to the builder surely. 
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2013, 08:32:41 pm »

a starting point.....i like that  :-))
 
obviously we can do what we like with our kits.....as i will carry on to do.......i was just curious if there are any old school who stay true to the kit and its instructions as much as possible.
 
another good point is the kit represents the vessel at that particular period, if you want that period then it would sensible to stay true to the kit.........

carlmt

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2013, 09:05:01 pm »

I think Colin's answer above just about sums it up perfectly!
 
Personally, I model a ship for a particular time - and if the kit doesnt reflect that, then I change it.  Case in point being the MS kit Yorkshireman.
 
I had one of the early kits which had the incorrect number of bridge windows, incorrect sized belting around the hull, incorrect portholes in the hull, wrong shaped bow at the bulwark level, and numerous other small inaccuracies.  However, I had tremendous fun researching the vessel and then modifying the kit as I built it.
 
I dont feel I have done the kit a dis-service (?), in fact the kit has helped me realise a model that would have taken me an age to build from scratch...
 
Carl 8)
 

chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2013, 09:24:56 pm »

Hi Carl
 
model slipway reworked the yorkshireman i was led to believe, it was done only a couple of years ago, do you think this is closer to what it should be ?
 
I find it fascinating researching, going through as many pics of a build as i can, seeing all the differences even one season can make.
 
im still new to this but find kits are extremley great value for money, my scratch build has cost a fortune...and its still got a long way to go.
 
i find it kind of sad on flea bay modellers selling boats for nearly the price of an unbuilt kit, giving the effort and expense to build it....very sad <:(
 
still some only build for the love of it and as long as they can get money to fund something else they dont care.

RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2013, 09:51:51 pm »

Hi Carl
 
 
i find it kind of sad on flea bay modellers selling boats for nearly the price of an unbuilt kit, giving the effort and expense to build it....very sad <:(
 
still some only build for the love of it and as long as they can get money to fund something else they dont care.

Don't you think they are being realistic, and practical, after all, the true price of anything is what I am prepared to pay for it.
In your example, I can buy the unmade kit for a fraction of the cost, of your 'expensively' priced/modified completed model.
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2013, 10:08:25 pm »

Many kits have been 'modified' by the manufacturer to make them easier to manufacture! So feel free to make any modifications you like if you think that this will make it more realistic or true to the period you want to depict. The basic kit is very often just a starting point.

Colin

That's it in a nutshell.
 
You can build the kit straight out of the box or add/change whatever take your fancy.
For instance let us say your are building a warship and there are 10 vessels in the class and the kit is the first vessel.
However you want to build the last one, which has been 'modified/changed' in some way due to operational experience etc.
So what do you do? Simple, you buy the 'original' kit and change it to represent the ship you want it to be.
 
You will find that many kit reviews deviate from the 'kit' for various reasons, such as was easier to do it this way, or that didn't work, or was not strong enough. Whereas the 'kit' manufacture designed for the market place, includes price to pay.
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Neil

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2013, 10:19:49 pm »

without kits, many modellers just wouldn't have the bravery to get into the hobby.................what you as a personal individual does with that kit after you have bought it is your own affair and is no way a brtrayal of the kit, the manufacturer or the real boat.
I have seen more that one Maggie M with the stern part of the shelter deck cut away to leave an open aft deck as many Cambletown 87 footers were built...they make a good conversion.
 
I'm just waiting for someone to make an old Anne Letitia Russell into the houseboat that she is now, lol.............it shows individuality and apart from the review kits I have built in the past I have never stuck to the kit format for any others that I have built since..............so you go right ahead........aparently some call it Kit bashing........I call it modellers licence.
neil.
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NFMike

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2013, 12:36:44 am »

"Staying true to" or "not betraying" a kit never even crosses my mind. As said above, few if any kits are really accurate, so building them to be a better representation of the original should be better. Or going the other way and kit-bashing them to be something different (real or imagined) is just ... different. Either way is keeping the noble art of model making alive, so just building a kit per the book could actually be classed as betraying model making :)

I think the only way you could perhaps betray a kit is to make a complete hash of it, so the end result is just awful. (OK, some prototypes would yield an accurate scale model that looked awful, but I'm talking more of things like a paint job to make Stavros weep.)

chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2013, 01:33:08 am »


Don't you think they are being realistic, and practical, after all, the true price of anything is what I am prepared to pay for it.
In your example, I can buy the unmade kit for a fraction of the cost, of your 'expensively' priced/modified completed model.

well actually no i dont think they are being realistic, there was an our lass 2 on ebay the other week it sold for 340 according to you you can buy the kit for 284 including postage, you still have to buy motors, speed controllers and rc bits and bobs.....ohh dont forget the uncountable hours for building it........so it is a shame people are getting just above an untouched kit price for some thing they slaved over for the love of it...
 
that is fine if some just do it for the fun and love and are happy to recoup costs....you may not be willing to pay decent money for a completed boat, as one would assume you can build kits no problem.....
 
so no its not realistic  :-))
 
ive not spent a great deal on maggie m above and beyond the norm, however i would not dream of letting it go for just above kit price at say 300
 
go build your own for that ....lol
 
 
Anyway good debate going on in here, in my mind a betrayal of the kit would be if 30 % - 50 % is still left in the box...obviously this wouldnt be wasted as we all would find another use.....ive seen some do it and ive thought about myself of aquiring a few of the same kit to have different periods of the same vessel....
 
 

NFMike

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2013, 10:25:34 am »

however i would not dream of letting it go for just above kit price at say  300

So it's worth 300 to you, but if no-one else will pay you that much for it then it stays with you and from our perspective it isn't worth 300. Supply and demand - it doesn't get much realler than that.

unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2013, 11:27:44 am »

Platic kit reviewers seldom build out of the box, usually apologising for adding after market accessories to improve this or that. If you are building the model as an 'individual' item, built by you and proudly so, modify away.
Personally I would love to see a Seabex One in its more modern guises with the monster cranes on board. Thats a build thread I would watch :-))
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2013, 03:10:41 pm »

Platic kit reviewers seldom build out of the box, usually apologising for adding after market accessories to improve this or that. If you are building the model as an 'individual' item, built by you and proudly so, modify away.
Personally I would love to see a Seabex One in its more modern guises with the monster cranes on board. Thats a build thread I would watch :-))
I like the yellow and red incarnation of the seabex also 2 monster cranes and 5 odd huge domes :-)
 
 
however i would not dream of letting it go for just above kit price at say  300

So it's worth 300 to you, but if no-one else will pay you that much for it then it stays with you and from our perspective it isn't worth 300. Supply and demand - it doesn't get much realler than that.

no its not worth 300 to me, it may be worth 300 to you if your a cheapskate......im 36 years old and in business, i understand supply and demand more than most.....
 
you want an ikea bedroom wardrobe set, it is 300....the instructions say it is moderately difficult to assemble and at times you may need 2 people all in all itll take an average 8 hrs to assemble......there is a cabinet maker next door that offers a build service for 40
 
you and the other guy would turn your nose up at this offer as you can buy it in a flat pack......taking the 8 hrs of your life to build it and needing the help in the process......frankly for 5 per hour in real terms the cabinet maker can have it.........
 
a 300 kit assembled is worth 300 to you......no wonder the second hand markets are diabolical with that logic...
 
as i said its a shame assembled and fully working barely cover their kit cost
 
 

Bob K

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2013, 05:06:45 pm »

It is all about personal choice.  This is a creative process after all, and depends on what you want to achieve.  Leaving aside Plastic Construction Kits, I doubt if any two "kits" ever finish identical.  We all add or modify to suit our individual skills and preferences.

Example:  My HMS Amazon from Deans Marine.  Exact colours are hard to research from century old B&W photos, as are some other details.  So I used some intuition and what seemed to look right.  The kit itself was excellent, and complete.  However I decided to add deck planking, glazed portholes and individual stanchions etc.  I happen to love detailing. 



Yes, it was a kit, but has been creatively enhanced to the best of my research and current skills level. 
Over around five months it worked out about 50p per hour to build.
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Norseman

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2013, 05:27:24 pm »

Hi Chris

If I think about your untouched Seabex kit, well I would pay you more for that than for a completed one  - I can only sail a completed build..... Now Wully never built and only sailed so for him the reverse would be true.

As to changing a kit - the only person to please is yourself. One guy wants period perfection and another guy wants to change everything based on an idea of what might be achieved. You have good skills so whatever you do will be good - it might only change a competition category.

Pity you live so far away ... take care in the weather headed your way  :-)

Dave
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2013, 06:10:29 pm »

very nice model Bob,
 
have you sold it ?.....that you know it was 50p an hour to build
 
as ive stated its a shame nobody wants to pay a little extra over kit value for a fully assembled vessel....given the hours that go into making it....
 
there are 3 guys in my club that have never made a boat themselves, they are happy to trawl about and buy others wares......obviously if you have the skill and time youd prefer the kit...and wouldnt dream of buying anyone elses....
 
Hi Dave
 
i have no problems altering kits that are readily available...maggie m as an example......this is the prime example of this discussion, as the majority on here and when you google search are text book kit builds with minute if any deviations from slipway recommendations.
The boat has been very different for about a decade with very few replicating the major change which is the radar box mast on the roof.....
Is it a case of perhaps most are not confident to deviate.....i actually perhaps nievely thought there were kit purists out there because of the lack of deviations particularly on model slipway kits.......at the moment they arent coming forward....lmao
 
aha competition category...is this kit purists ?????
 
 

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2013, 06:23:12 pm »

If you want to be true to the kit
No sound module
No lights unless it is mobile marine (lights included)
No smoke
No problem

Ned
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ixion

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2013, 06:28:03 pm »

maggie m as an example......this is the prime example of this discussion, as the majority on here and when you google search are text book kit builds with minute if any deviations from slipway recommendations.
The boat has been very different for about a decade with very few replicating the major change which is the radar box mast on the roof.....
Three years on I am still adding to my Maggie M as upgrades are done to the real boat.
 
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Norseman

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2013, 06:30:07 pm »

aha competition category...is this kit purists ?????

Ooh, only judges understand competion rules Chris.
Some entrants will even argue against that statement.  {-)

Dave
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2013, 06:46:40 pm »

Three years on I am still adding to my Maggie M as upgrades are done to the real boat.

Hi ixion thats great, nice model.....yours is a rarety  :-)) . What projects are you up to now ?
 
 
 
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