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Author Topic: Staying true to the kit..... or not  (Read 7717 times)

Bob K

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2013, 07:15:02 PM »


have you sold it ?.....that you know it was 50p an hour to build


Chris:  Thank you.  The 50p figure was the total cost of the kit and additional materials, divided by my time taken to build it
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Neil

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2013, 07:19:30 PM »

however i would not dream of letting it go for just above kit price at say  300

So it's worth 300 to you, but if no-one else will pay you that much for it then it stays with you and from our perspective it isn't worth 300. Supply and demand - it doesn't get much realler than that.
In that case Catbed, you'll be wanting a monkey to build your next model for you..............after all, if you pay peanuts, that's what you'll get, a gibbering gibbon {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #27 on: January 18, 2013, 07:35:30 PM »

In that case Catbed, you'll be wanting a monkey to build your next model for you..............after all, if you pay peanuts, that's what you'll get, a gibbering gibbon {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)

 
id like to see his conversation with the plumber that comes to fix his boiler.....
 
plumber : that'll be 120 parts plus 50 labour.......
 
catbed : well its only worth 120 cos thats the parts........supply and demand mr plumber
 
plumber : you expect it to be done for * all
 
catbed : thats all its worth
 
scene : like a 80's batman scene....kappoooww, shezzang, offfffffff, pooow.......thudd
 
 {-) {-)


 

NFMike

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #28 on: January 18, 2013, 08:56:02 PM »

Neil and Chris, you have missed the point by so much that I'm not even going to attempt re-explaining, or stoop to petty insults. You have your ideas, I'll stick with mine.

My apologies to all those who also misunderstood what I wrote before - it looks clear enough to me, but obviously isn't.

Neil

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #29 on: January 18, 2013, 09:10:59 PM »

I think you ought to  chillax Catbed or you'll give yerself an embolism...........if you can't see a joke then you had better lie down in a dark room and count to twenty O0 O0 {:-{ {:-{ {:-{ {:-{
there was nothing in my post that remotely smacked of an insult..the only insults actually came from you  saying what you'd pay someone for a fine model.
 
If you came to me offering that for one of mine, I'd probably die laughing..... then tell you to go away jumping whilst travelling...........
 
your comments are the insults when you state what you'd pay for a model,..........one  made with love, attention to detail, care and a whole lot of hours..........welcome to the real world.
 
To quote what a kit manufacturer said to me once upon a time........"hope you get better soon"   %% %% %% {-) {-) {-) {-) {-)
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2013, 03:48:24 AM »

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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2013, 04:11:28 AM »

Neil and Chris, you have missed the point by so much that I'm not even going to attempt re-explaining, or stoop to petty insults. You have your ideas, I'll stick with mine.

My apologies to all those who also misunderstood what I wrote before - it looks clear enough to me, but obviously isn't.

Catbed,
 
I think there is a stir going on here and I agree with you.
 
No misunderstnding here, misunderstanding is in the 'evil'  ok2 ok2 eye of the reader. The topic now seems to be, how much am I worth (Labour put into model) answer, sadly Nil. Even if your are a brain surgeon or rocket scientist, still nil. Unless, someone is prepare to buy the model with your value of your labour.
All the mumbo jumbo about plumbers etc is all irrelevant.
A plumber is selling a service that is used/needed by very many. Whereas a model boat, plus your time, (value nil) is used/needed by how many ...........well work it out. You won't like it, nor do you have to, but the reality is the Plumber wins hands down.
As someone else put it simply, supply and demand, offer and acceptance, too dear offer refused, supply and demand.
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unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #32 on: January 19, 2013, 09:26:15 AM »

Couldn't agree more. I sell second hand models week in, week out, and no matter how much you talk up your own, no doubt incredible, skills as a model maker, the buyer will walk, laughing his head off, if you ask 'silly money'.
The local storehouse of antiques and things sells model boats at what has been agreed by fellow Mayhemmers to be astronomically silly prices. But, he does sell through, albeit slowly. If you wait long enough, you can sell anything, but are you always willing to wait for that slightly better off, judgement lacking buyer, or do you need to move the model on quickly. I did personally and took a cut on the price to move a model of mine on last week. Money makes the world go round, and its gone to a good home. I'm happy, the new owner is happy, we are all happy :}
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RAAArtyGunner

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #33 on: January 19, 2013, 09:58:54 AM »

That's a very good point about money and taking a cut to sell.
Am not very good at economics, but it goes something like this.
 
 If you sell at a lesser but realistic price at today's pound value, it is worth more if you wait and sell at your unrealistic higher price in future pounds value. In other words, you can buy more for your quids now, than in the future.
Not to mention, you have your money now, and working for you. In effect, the cut in price reaps dividends now, not when or if you sell, which may mean no money at all.
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roycv

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #34 on: January 19, 2013, 12:03:27 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong but i believe kits sell better after a build review in a magazine.  I think this is the time that a kit should be built from the box so that potential purchasers can see what they are getting. 
I do agree with previous points that the kit is a starting point.

I find it annoying if a build reviewer goes off to the workshop to turn up a better item on his lathe.  Not so much these days fortunately.

Modellers are interested in a good preferably full size plan and good instructions and would like to know the quality of hull,materials and the fittings.

 If the reviewer points out perhaps easier ways to construct the model and also points to where improvements can be made this is a good thing.

Perhaps another point is showing his / her drive and control system, i.e. something that is effective and works.

Value for money is usually good but having all the parts you need for the model in a box is something you have to pay for.

I am building an oldish  Polish kit at the moment the instructions are in joke English!  Some of the parts are just the wrong size although beautifully laser cut!  The scales of the fittings varies but they are nicely finished!
The plans are full size but it took a few hours on the web to find a finished model to work out how the back of the wheel house is made.  Once seen the plans become clearer.

So I am building the kit!  But some things have to change!
regards Roy

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Colin Bishop

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2013, 01:16:34 PM »

Quote
So I am building the kit! But some things have to change!

As a kit reviewer I would agree. Kit reviewers don't want to end up with a duff model simply by slavishly following inappropriate instructions but if they are not followed then the reader should be told why. My philopsophy was summed up in a recent review as follows:
 
 In general I have used the items provided in the way intended except in the following instances:

The material or component is not appropriate or fit for purpose.
The suggested technique is either too time consuming or not the best way to do the job.
The instructions are unclear or lacking so that a degree of interpretation has to be applied.
I made a mistake and had to fabricate a replacement!

Where I have departed from the instructions or ‘done my own thing’ I have explained the reason for this so that the reader can make their own mind up on which course to follow.
 
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2013, 03:00:53 PM »

chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2013, 03:41:59 PM »


Catbed,
 
I think there is a stir going on here and I agree with you.
 
No misunderstnding here, misunderstanding is in the 'evil'  ok2 ok2 eye of the reader. The topic now seems to be, how much am I worth (Labour put into model) answer, sadly Nil. Even if your are a brain surgeon or rocket scientist, still nil. Unless, someone is prepare to buy the model with your value of your labour.
All the mumbo jumbo about plumbers etc is all irrelevant.
A plumber is selling a service that is used/needed by very many. Whereas a model boat, plus your time, (value nil) is used/needed by how many ...........well work it out. You won't like it, nor do you have to, but the reality is the Plumber wins hands down.
As someone else put it simply, supply and demand, offer and acceptance, too dear offer refused, supply and demand.
[/quote
 
we are in agreement   "sadly nil"
 
the fact its not a service or needed.....is rubbish...if you value your work at zero well what can you expect....and all the like minded who value their time at zero are ruining it for the rest.
As unbuiltnautilis is showing with his obvious impartiality
Quote
Couldn't agree more. I sell second hand models week in, week out, and no matter how much you talk up your own, no doubt incredible, skills as a model maker, the buyer will walk, laughing his head off, if you ask 'silly money'.
now he who buys week in week out, buys at the lowest price he can, and then sells at anything above to recover costs and make soemthing. This is neither right nor wrong as been established its the way it works at the moment.
People undervalue themselves, they think its a hobby, more often than not when they sell they probably are desperate for quick money..which plays into the buyers hands.....or they built a model years ago dont use it much meh ill stick it on fleabay, what ever i get is a bonus and may pay for the next thing......
 
in my club alone
 
a guy stuck a walter marwede ( spelling i know ) on ebay with a reserve.....reserve was £ 250 one bidder failed but enquired what a suitable selling price would be......in the time that the ebayer came back another browser who hadnt bidded, worked on the walter tug and offered 500 quid there and then
 
our old secretary gets comissions to build yachts and has built a couple of kits, basically the price is the cost of the kit and electronics etc doubled as a total price which is decent but is a poor hourly rate if worked out in real terms...
 
As ive stated i dont value my time at zero, a 300 kit ive built is worth substantially more than 300.....yes if i ever decided to sell i may have to wait to get what i want.....i may never get what i want.....but no one will get it for 300 thats for sure
 
for those with the apathy and the value is only materialistic i.e.... a painter spends canvas 25, paint 5 his outlay is 30......so to those previous posters it is only worth 30......get fckn real......we live in a capatilist society the painter who sells for 30 will starve, the painter who values his time will make a living and the world will appreciate him as he values himself...
 
its only a hobby " THEY CRY " is your time equally less worthless
 
 :-))
 
 

chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #38 on: January 19, 2013, 04:16:59 PM »

Correct me if I am wrong but i believe kits sell better after a build review in a magazine.  I think this is the time that a kit should be built from the box so that potential purchasers can see what they are getting. 
I do agree with previous points that the kit is a starting point.

I find it annoying if a build reviewer goes off to the workshop to turn up a better item on his lathe.  Not so much these days fortunately.

Modellers are interested in a good preferably full size plan and good instructions and would like to know the quality of hull,materials and the fittings.

 If the reviewer points out perhaps easier ways to construct the model and also points to where improvements can be made this is a good thing.

Perhaps another point is showing his / her drive and control system, i.e. something that is effective and works.

Value for money is usually good but having all the parts you need for the model in a box is something you have to pay for.

I am building an oldish  Polish kit at the moment the instructions are in joke English!  Some of the parts are just the wrong size although beautifully laser cut!  The scales of the fittings varies but they are nicely finished!
The plans are full size but it took a few hours on the web to find a finished model to work out how the back of the wheel house is made.  Once seen the plans become clearer.

So I am building the kit!  But some things have to change!
regards Roy

Great points Roy
 
i bought a couple of issues of a magazine for the review on Kontio....as you say its informative where the builder says what needs to be amended, and in reality that is a major saving in time and perhaps replacement materials.
 
obviously there has to be a high degree of common sense with a good backdrop of photos of the real thing just as a visual aid...
 
if you were to buy individual fittings they would work out at a small fortune, hence i think the real value of kits is all the bits in a mass bundle...
 
i was going to buy an old smit rotterdam kit, that had seperate fittings pack....the boat would cost 90 quid, th eseperate fittings pack was heading for 80 quid...so i balked at that....however i went on the billings website and priced all the fittings i would need, i gave up once i hit the 130 mark with still all the wire etc to go.........obviously the modern smit comes with all its fittings in one which would have worked out cheaper at the time.
 

unbuiltnautilus

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #39 on: January 19, 2013, 04:30:19 PM »

A model built as part of your hobby should provide you with many, many hours of pleasure, not chargeable time to recoup when you sell on the model. If you are building for someone else, they should expect to contribute towards your time, taken building their model.
Hobby and business are two different things.
....and trust me, I'm rarely impartial, I just dont want to come across as a ranting, dribbling, opinionated loon on the forum. See me in person and ask me my views on anything, then stand back :-)
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2013, 04:45:54 PM »

A model built as part of your hobby should provide you with many, many hours of pleasure, not chargeable time to recoup when you sell on the model. If you are building for someone else, they should expect to contribute towards your time, taken building their model.
Hobby and business are two different things.
....and trust me, I'm rarely impartial, I just dont want to come across as a ranting, dribbling, opinionated loon on the forum. See me in person and ask me my views on anything, then stand back :-)

Its not in question that people do it for the enjoyment, that is taken without even needing to be said......and many myself included arent in it for the money, infact as we are proving there are better ways to spend hours if money is the motivation.
 
Hobby and business are shades of grey not completely different, anything that involves labour and time are seperated only by degrees of perspective.....
However model boat makers, put zero value on their time as evident by alot of responses.......all im asking is WHY !!!!
 
are there to many Martyrs....ohhh i had so much joy making it....satan would take me if for the love of god, i got paid a decent price for it aswell........... %%
 
lets see that spitting ranting loon.........thats what this country needs......to much apathy..........lol ;) :-))

Colin Bishop

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #41 on: January 19, 2013, 05:12:10 PM »

Quote
However model boat makers, put zero value on their time as evident by alot of responses.......all im asking is WHY !!!!

I don't really think that's the point Chris, you cannot dicate what you sell it for beyond what is generally perceived as being the 'market value' and that is set by the buyer, not the seller. They will only pay what it is worth to them. At the moment model boat kits don't fetch very good prices, probably because there are a lot of them for sale, not a huge demand, and there is no real uniqueness about them, some may be better than others but only enough to make a relatively marginal difference pricewise.
 
Back in the early 1990s I sold my review model of the Caldercraft Imara for £1,200 at Christie's. You probably wouldn't get a fraction of that now even without factoring in inflation. These days the specialist auction houses won't touch kits. Turn up with a builder's model of an old liner however and you are looking at £10k or more because it is unique and has historical value.
 
There are lots of things that detemine resale value and time spent making is just one of them and sometimes it does't count for much if the market is depressed. It's not just model boats, classic cars are another example, unless it is very rare, a restorer is unlikely to get their money back in terms of hours put in.
 
Colin
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #42 on: January 19, 2013, 05:25:32 PM »


I don't really think that's the point Chris, you cannot dicate what you sell it for beyond what is generally perceived as being the 'market value' and that is set by the buyer, not the seller. They will only pay what it is worth to them. At the moment model boat kits don't fetch very good prices, probably because there are a lot of them for sale, not a huge demand, and there is no real uniqueness about them, some may be better than others but only enough to make a relatively marginal difference pricewise.
 
Back in the early 1990s I sold my review model of the Caldercraft Imara for £1,200 at Christie's. You probably wouldn't get a fraction of that now even without factoring in inflation. These days the specialist auction houses won't touch kits. Turn up with a builder's model of an old liner however and you are looking at £10k or more because it is unique and has historical value.
 
There are lots of things that detemine resale value and time spent making is just one of them and sometimes it does't count for much if the market is depressed. It's not just model boats, classic cars are another example, unless it is very rare, a restorer is unlikely to get their money back in terms of hours put in.
 
Colin

thoughtful and well presented post Colin thanks very much.
 
obviously we are meant to be in a double dip recession, as you say depressed markets and a whole host of variables for effect a successful sale.
 
Im not insinuating that building a kit should reep thousands.........as ive already stated the people that are prepared to let their boats go at about kit price, may have a multitude of reasons for allowing it to go at that...
 
Its that a few posters in here seem to think that build time has zero value, which is the crux of this secondary debate.......
 
 

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #43 on: January 19, 2013, 05:31:08 PM »

Hi Chris

It's not a zero value thing it's just what suits an individuals pocket. Hence I don't have a nice car because owners don't sell them at what I can afford. On Flea bay I aways bid the same way regardless of the object for sale. I decide the max I would be happy to part with (no relation to intrinsic value) and in the final few seconds that is what I bid. Simple, if I win it that's fine and if not then it is more than I wanted to pay. If the item goes so cheap that the seller is unhappy then he should have set his reserve just as I set my maximum bid.

On our sales board I have either paid the asking price because I was happy with it, or on one occasion paid a price that  the seller decided to lower it to after a few weeks sitting unsold. I have never made a reduced offer to a seller.

One thing not mentioned so far is that many Mayhemmers both have given and received items for free from other members - even so far as free postage too. What a wonderful community we have here. I was once even given a large boat during a clear out.

Dave
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #44 on: January 19, 2013, 05:43:58 PM »

Hi Chris

It's not a zero value thing it's just what suits an individuals pocket. Hence I don't have a nice car because owners don't sell them at what I can afford. On Flea bay I aways bid the same way regardless of the object for sale. I decide the max I would be happy to part with (no relation to intrinsic value) and in the final few seconds that is what I bid. Simple, if I win it that's fine and if not then it is more than I wanted to pay. If the item goes so cheap that the seller is unhappy then he should have set his reserve just as I set my maximum bid.

On our sales board I have either paid the asking price because I was happy with it, or on one occasion paid a price that  the seller decided to lower it to after a few weeks sitting unsold. I have never made a reduced offer to a seller.

One thing not mentioned so far is that many Mayhemmers both have given and received items for free from other members - even so far as free postage too. What a wonderful community we have here. I was once even given a large boat during a clear out.

Dave

Dave
The community here is wonderful, the amount of help ive recieved in various guises is truly humbling.......i give stuff away to other club members etc, im sure ill do the same here if ever there is any way i can help thats for sure.
And as i become more familiar and known then i can give back as my experience grows aswell..
 
i too would pay an asking price if it was what i truly wanted, if it didnt interest me i wouldnt bid.
 
This all stemed from an innocent comment.
 
where i saw some really good examples of boats making just over kit price....i said it was a shame........what is it about this statement that has brought out defence ego's in others.....
 
Is it not a shame ?
 
Dave you and other shave made me feel very welcome on this board thanks ;)

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2013, 05:50:02 PM »

What would happen in this instance- Two people enter a model building competition with the same kit. One of them has done a fantastic job and has stuck to the instructions religiously. The other person has done a good job but has gone further in modifying the kit to a high degree with a lot of extra research and the like. How would you judge which is better, I mean the vanilla version can be compared and measured against other examples and judged against them while the other shows off the builders research as well as building skills but how would you know that? What they say is a modification based on photographs could be wrong in scale for example? Who would win the competition out of these two?
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2013, 06:02:59 PM »

Boathound,
 
We frequently have this situation in the Model Engineer Exhibition and, generally speaking, an enhanced kit will attract more marks than a 'plain vanilla' one. The enhancements might include working features or they might include the sort of modifications you have suggested in which case the judges would expect to be presented with documentary evidence to support the enhancements/changes which is normally the case.
 
Two other things to bear in mind:
 
In a competition the judges are not going to have either the time or inclination to examine the building instructions and plans provided by the kit manufacturer - they will judge the boat as they see it. The marking profile for a kit is rather different to that of a scratchbuilt model and gives weight to standards of construction and finish which is where the kit buioder normally has most opportunity to demostrate the quality of work.
 
If someone has gone to a lot of trouble to research changes to the standard offering then there are more likely to have got those changes right than otherwise. Else why bother?
 
Of course not all competitions use the same rules. I have seen one instance where the lady mayor was invited to pick the model she liked the most, which was the open launch with the teddy bear driving it! And why not?!
 
Colin
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chris gillespie

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2013, 06:11:48 PM »

What would happen in this instance- Two people enter a model building competition with the same kit. One of them has done a fantastic job and has stuck to the instructions religiously. The other person has done a good job but has gone further in modifying the kit to a high degree with a lot of extra research and the like. How would you judge which is better, I mean the vanilla version can be compared and measured against other examples and judged against them while the other shows off the builders research as well as building skills but how would you know that? What they say is a modification based on photographs could be wrong in scale for example? Who would win the competition out of these two?

This is in essance the reason for the thread
 
It is all about comparisons, comparison to the real thing, comparison to the real thing at a later date, comparisons to other models and comparison to the kits specification..
 
as Dave (norseman) says, judges dont even know themselves...i wouldnt know never been in a comp how can you pick a winner
 
for comp purposes i would have thought more kit purists would have come forward.....as i think it is equally valid as myself and the majority who think its our kit we can do what we like....
 
i guess it would have to come down to skill of execution to choose the winner......no burry edges, no crappy mitres lol.....i imagine this has to be how its worked as, more often than not kits come up against other kits not neccessarily the same vessel.....is it benchmarked against the optimum kit version ?
 
superb point boathound  :-))
 
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Colin Bishop

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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2013, 06:44:18 PM »

Have a look at the MPBA Scale Rules which include Kits as one of the classes:
http://www.mpba.org.uk/Section_pages/scale.html
 
Colin
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Re: Staying true to the kit..... or not
« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2013, 07:24:06 PM »

Re the topic title, I guess it's down to the reason behind why you are building the model in the first place. Is it a commission, maybe nostalgia from memory or time served, to win a trophy or two or just enjoy building models you yourself are happy with irrelevant of picky comments from the pedants.  Regards to value, I do it as a 'pastime' and as such, expenditure is what I can afford to put into it the model and not what the value maybe should I choose to sell once completed.
        Many people enjoy playing golf, if they pack up and sell off their kit I don't suppose they expect to get paid for the time spent washing their balls.
            I have so little knowledge of boats, and not good at research that I would struggle greatly without kits /instructions, but I thoroughly enjoy building them and will make amendments to achieve my own satisfaction. I think what Colin (Bishop) has both done and said in his review, hits the nail right on the head, he made a silk purse out of what could well have been a bit of a sows ear and for me, being reasonably new to building models, is confirmation of my own thoughts.
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