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Author Topic: Sabino Engineering Build log  (Read 19523 times)

Landlocked

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Sabino Engineering Build log
« on: February 09, 2013, 03:56:36 am »

Hi,


Well, I've built my first tank.  I won't be attempting a boiler anytime soon but it was a good learning experience.


Built it from .025 in copper.  Probably thicker than it needed to be.  I could only do the first two bends with vice jaw mounted blocks -- two small a diameter.  Placed the sheet between two hardwood strips and used my thumbs and then a body work hammer.


Forward loop is a feedwater preheater.  After bushing is for draining water with a syring.  After tube is bent to bounce exhaust off of wall to help with separation.


Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2013, 04:09:55 am »

Looks a good design Ken........& matched to the TRV :-)) ...........a little sanding, priming & black enamel together with the copper & brass fittings will be a very professional build  O0 
 
The dryer coil will get an internal ambient temperature increase even with a lower hot liquid level............
In the exploded view .......I think you may have shown the inlet/outlet condensate endplate 90 %) no........ :embarrassed:  180 degrees out of WACK O0 ...so when assembled, the dryer coil will get an internal ambient temperature increase even with a lower hot liquid level............
Keep up the postings ......we enjoy them O0 ........Derek
 
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Derek Warner

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ooyah/2

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 05:18:48 pm »

Hi,


Well, I've built my first tank.  I won't be attempting a boiler anytime soon but it was a good learning experience.


Built it from .025 in copper.  Probably thicker than it needed to be.  I could only do the first two bends with vice jaw mounted blocks -- two small a diameter.  Placed the sheet between two hardwood strips and used my thumbs and then a body work hammer.


Forward loop is a feedwater preheater.  After bushing is for draining water with a syring.  After tube is bent to bounce exhaust off of wall to help with separation.


Ken

Ken,

Your exhaust inlet to the tank is O.K. as the exhaust pipe on your engine is pointing aft, can I suggest that you solder a pipe into the exhaust end flat to the bottom and put a piece of Silicone tube on it ( the kind that the Fly boys use for fuel ) with a stopper in the tube.
When finished steaming for the day shut the steam exhaust from the tank to the funnel and the engine while running will pump the water and oil condensate out of the tank and into a container for disposal.

What are the 2- connections on the tank top for, does the one with the 90deg bend go to the funnel ? if so you can use silicone tube to link up to the funnel and then it's only a matter of pinching that tube to pump out the condensate
at the end of the day.
What is the other vertical pipe on the tank top for ?

Your installation looks good, nice job.

George.

Derek,
it's a water heater not a drier.
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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2013, 05:32:24 pm »

Derek,


I wish I could take credit for thinking about whether the coil was immersed in the condensate or not. 


What isn't evident from the first photos is the back wall is angled.


I bent the coil as tight as I dared and then fitted it so the coil was horizontal in the square section.  I staggered the tubing lengths so I could fasten the lower union (going to the boiler) before fitting the section to the pump.  I was concerned about getting the fittings made up since the tank is tucked under the side deck and can't go in and out already made up with the boiler and engine.


On the prototype, the boiler casing was green with the engine a darker red.  I'll probably go with black for the tank.  Any advice on paints?  I think enamel on the tank and engine is ok but not sure on the boiler end.  Concerned it will get too hot but burner end is hidden so maybe we're ok painting only the aft end.  The true engine enamels are all the wrong colors or minimum order is a gallon.
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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2013, 05:42:06 pm »

George,


Elbow joint is to go to the funnel.  It's threaded into a 1/4-40 bush so I may change it to a union.   Unfortunately, almost all my piping ended up on the starboard side so I having to fit the piping in layers before determining where the next layer will run.  Exhaust will be the last layer.  Desire to do it in copper but might change it to rubber.


I've chosen to keep the piping runs fairly long with gentle bends so I have lots of "spring" as I fit things in and out.


Vertical tubing in center is the blow out line (see new photo). I plan on using tubing with a plug.  I'll probably trim the length down but better to build it long than short.


Ken
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ooyah/2

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2013, 05:58:34 pm »

George,


Elbow joint is to go to the funnel.  It's threaded into a 1/4-40 bush so I may change it to a union.   Unfortunately, almost all my piping ended up on the starboard side so I having to fit the piping in layers before determining where the next layer will run.  Exhaust will be the last layer.  Desire to do it in copper but might change it to rubber.


I've chosen to keep the piping runs fairly long with gentle bends so I have lots of "spring" as I fit things in and out.


Vertical tubing in center is the blow out line (see new photo). I plan on using tubing with a plug.  I'll probably trim the length down but better to build it long than short.


Ken

Ken,
Yes I am with you now, the pipe from the top of the tank is what I suggested only being soldered into the end plate at the bottom which keeps the pipe tucked in and out of the way.
If you use tubing to the funnel you can blow out at end of the day by blocking the exhaust and it will pump out int a container for disposal, good idea for the sloping floor in the tank which will let you pump out all of the sludge.
Try some of the Auto shops for engine black heat resistant paint, it is available in Mat Black which I have used on some of my boiler ends. ,don't know about gloss.

George.
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2013, 09:49:51 pm »

Ken......VHT market a range of high temperature engine enamels as George noted...it is available in gloss black.....you bake it in the oven to increase its hardness & chemical resistance
George....... :embarrassed: yes of course a heater not a dryer  {-) .....Derek
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Derek Warner

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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 03:07:18 am »

Thanks,


I'm hoping to find them in brush on versions.  My luck with spray paints is very low.


Ken
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ooyah/2

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 09:58:41 am »

Thanks,


I'm hoping to find them in brush on versions.  My luck with spray paints is very low.


Ken

Mike,
It's the brush on version that I use, have a look around your local Auto accessories shop, if you can't find anything there try a D.I.Y. store and look at radiator paint.
Jerry with his S.L.Weir launch build used radiator paint on his engine and boiler so you could have another read at that.

George.
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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2013, 02:20:26 am »

Well, it's painted.  Too many brush strokes.  Even sanded between coats and thinned it a little.


Figured out how to mount it to the tray so I can lift it in and out with the tank installed and lines made up.


Ken
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Landlocked

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Exhaust Routing -- Into the stack? or along side?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2013, 11:21:19 pm »

Well, having built the condensate tank, I was ready to build the feed tank.

I built a cardboard mockup to check fit.  I angled the walls from top to bottom to more fully fill the volume in the flared bow sections.  I considered flaring them out from the fore/aft perspective as well but decided the slight additional volume wasn't worth it.  Total volume is about a pint.

I placed the feedtank in the frame bay I had planned for the gas tank.  I thought about moving the gas tank one more bay forward but was concerned about being nose heavy.  I decided to located the gas tank over the shaft.  The valve will protrude through the deck but without a fiber optic probe, I don't think it will be visible from outside.

I used a vice mounted die set to put flanges on the sides and front and back.  I decided to use a lap joint instead of a miters at the corners where the side and front/back flanges overlapped.  I should have used miters since I ended up with too big of gaps in two corners and had to solder in some filler pieces.

Soldering on the bottom proceeded with no trouble.  I had pre-tinned the flanges.  I added a baffle plate just offset from centerline to minimize the sloshing from side to side.  Pretty close fit top to bottom but about 1/4 in gaps on the sides.  I would have preferred smaller gaps but I was out of copper.

I drilled all the fitting holes one drill undersized and then crept up on the fit using a reamer.  I was concerned with the bit grabbing and tearing the hole sides.  Worked well.

At the last minute, I thankfully spotted in SailorGreg's Solent steam launch build log a reference to a breather tube for his tank.  Decided to place it on the centerline and curve it on the inside to almost reach the top to minimize any full tank sloshing pushing some water out.

Soldering on the top was a struggle.  My design hadn't taken into account the need to clamp the acute angles at the corners.  Bottomline, the side seam solder melted and they sprung out a little.  A close look at the picture will reveal my use of epoxy putty.  :((

I added a sight gauge.  There really isn't much useful length but I had one already.  Since the whole feed system is being installed more from a sense of engineering principles and not operational need... in for a penny, in for a pound.

I used a couple of 1/4-40 threaded sleeves from PM Research to thread the 90 degree elbows and stop valve directly together.  The offset is needed to avoid the gas pressure control valve assemble occupying the centerline.

Last pic shows the full layout.  I need to fit the servos for the engine (I'm going to use the ACTion throttle/shifter mixer) and (re) build the bridge deck that will straddle the front of the boiler (I decided I needed more ventilation -- anybody have a source for 1/16 scale mesh decking?) before I can run my gas, feed, and feed return lines.  It's March but I should meet my April float test/steam up goal before I take my summer break.

Ken

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Landlocked

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Exhaust Routing -- Into the stack? or along side?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2013, 11:32:26 pm »

Hi,


What's the group consensus?  Run the exhaust along the outside of the stack or into it? 


Into it would avoid a non-prototypical extra piping topside and could/should help with the draft but is it worth the hassle?  I remember a post where it created too much draft.


My stack has to pass up through two decks.  I'll need to section it regardless.  I haven't decided whether to run rubber or copper tubing for the exhaust.


My feed tank post shows my configuration.


All thoughts greatly appreciated.


Thanks,


Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Feed Tank Build Log/Lessons "Learned"
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2013, 12:10:43 am »

Hey landlocked  %) ...possibly you could ask a Moderator to link all of your previous threads on this build into one single thread  O0


Your wish is my command



The makeup water tank looks good....is that a baffle on center ?....the reason I ask is somewhere down the track [retirement?] I am faced with the need for a similar tank as the sailing water I can use is salty or brackish  >>:-( [our member southsteyene knows this]
I have considered a water gauge glass as a necessity as will be bottom drain isolation valving, topside venting or breathing of the tank isolation valving & check valve prior to the boiler....etc
We look forward to more text & images of your steam build............ :-)) .....Derek
 
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kiwimodeller

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Re: Exhaust Routing -- Into the stack? or along side?
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2013, 08:58:35 am »

Ken, I have five steam powered boats, two of which have the exhaust piped to the funnel. I am not sure how much difference to the draft through the boiler it makes to have the exhaust inside the funnel, personally I have not noticed any difference either way. I will not run it up the funnel any more just because of the mess it makes. I have an oile collector in the exhaust line and I have an adjustable lubricator so I can cut the oil supplied to the engine to a minimum (and get a long run out of one fill of the lubricator) but even if I do this the exhust steam still leaves a mess on the aft cabin so from now on it is out the side for me. It does not seem to make an oil slick in the lake but there is enough to make a stain, especially on a white cabin. Just my opinion and i am sure that others will beg to differ and suggest a taller funnel perhaps. Cheers, Ian.
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hammer

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Re: Exhaust Routing -- Into the stack? or along side?
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2013, 12:43:04 pm »

I must say I like the exhaust inside the funnel. Had on trouble with spots on the outside of the model, even on my 12 year old Glen Usk. The plus side lots of steam  out funnel on a cold day.
Derek . I have sent you 3 PMs have you receved them. Geoff
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ModmanMax

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Re: Exhaust Routing -- Into the stack? or along side?
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2013, 01:54:24 am »

Any water and oil making its way into a hot funnel tends to make it sizzle and pop especially if you forget to empty the condensate tank. It is also messy.
I have even had the burner on one model go out when too much water went down the funnel. I think the condensate tank is too small on that model.
I am in favor of a separate out let. I have been thinking of a 2 prong approach with a condensate tank where liquid is drained away so it does not get forced out up the funnel or into the lake.
Any ideas?


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flashtwo

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #16 on: March 08, 2013, 07:39:20 pm »

Hi,
 
I fitted a condensate / oil separator on my steam boat with the oil-free water being syphoned from the bottom of the separator to drain externally. Previously I had a condensate collector which would fill up only after 20 mins steam with the Stuart D10 engine. With this set up there is no need to empty the separator other than a few times in the season when it is advisable to flush out the collected oil with a detergent.
 
There is an internal baffle plate to direct the incoming condensate away from the steam exit stack which is not connected to the main boiler stack. The discharged water is free from oil, but one must remember to top up with clean water on startup otherwise the initial oily condensate will get discharged overboard!
 
The current separator has a feed heater coil which raises the temperature from about 9degC to 96degC.
 
Ian
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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #17 on: March 09, 2013, 07:05:32 pm »

Flashtwo,


I never thought about piping the clean bottom layer directly overboard.  My deckplate/tank vs waterline level won't support it, there won't be a void for the steam.


When I started, I wasn't planning on the feedpump and I felt comfortable about the condensate tank size.  We'll see which is the limiting factor, my gas tank or the condensate tank.


I would love to be working in the D10 size range instead of the TVR1A -- so many more features one could add.  I did full size steam in the Navy. 


Ken
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Landlocked

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Stern Tube Fluid
« Reply #18 on: March 27, 2013, 03:07:52 am »

Hi,


What should I fill the stern tube with?  I thought I would smear some petroleum jelly at the bushings and then fill the tube and its standpipe with cooking oil.  Any particular type better?  Peanut oil? Canola? Whatever's in the cupboard?


Figure that would be the most environmentally friendly way of doing it.


Ken
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Henk Goosen

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2013, 06:53:42 am »

Is the stern tube copper or brass? Brass gives a nasty reaction with vegatable oils. It becomes some sort of gell/gum. I know this by experince,
as a clockmaker I sometimes get repairs that people lubricated with vegetable oil and find this ugly substance on the brass plates. I fill my tubes with petroleum jelly.

Henk.
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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2013, 01:22:40 am »


Henk,

The tube is brass.


I had heard that filling the entire tube with petroleum jelly produces too much drag on the shaft.


Maybe I need to find the piece I cut off and soak it in some stuff.


Thanks,


Ken
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Landlocked

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Pipings Done
« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2013, 02:58:39 am »

Well the piping's done.


Water is in the tank and boiler, feedpump primed, oil in the lubricator, gas in the tank.  Now I just need some courage and nice weather.


First test will be in the garage without the shaft hooked up.  If all goes well, I'll hook up the shaft and test float her.  If that's successful, layup for the summer and it'll be superstructure building next fall.


Stay tuned.


Ken
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Landlocked

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First Light Off Excitement
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2013, 01:20:36 am »

Well,


That was exciting!!!!


I have a gas leak from or around my gas control valve.  Immediately after the flame pull back into the burner, the whole front end was a burning!  I quickly shut the gas tank valve -- glad I moved the tank to the aft end.


Demonstrating my Darwin award skills, and after I repeated the phenomenon,  I attempted to isolate the leak.  I screwed in the pressure adjustment on the gas control valve.  When attempting to relight the burner, nothing happened, until enough butane had leaked (still on the first match, I'm not totally a neanderthal) to fill the hull at which it all flashed over -- I no longer could qualify as a missing link either since I now have no hair on my knuckles.


I made up a jumper to contect my tank to directly to the burner.  Successful light off.  But, I had tried to only partially fill the tank and I obviously hadn't understood the fill until liquid comes out concept.  The flame quickly went out on low gas.  Still not understanding the concept, I put some more, but not enough gas in -- the venting noise during fill spooked me.  This time, the very cold tank told me I had lots of gas expansion. 


Third times the charm.  The frost on the tank tells me I should let it warm up before trying again.


Stay tuned for tomorrow's update!


Ken
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derekwarner

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2013, 01:44:16 am »

Goodness Landlocked....take care  >>:-(
Is this not a MacSteam gas tank shown below in your setup?
"I have a gas leak from or around my gas control valve".......
 I don't quite understand the origin of the leakage ......  <*< .....Derek
 
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Derek Warner

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Landlocked

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Re: Custom Condensate Tank & Exhaust Routing
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2013, 03:43:58 am »

Derek,


That is a MacSteam gas tank!  It, and its gas shut off valve, are fine.  The leakage is coming from the gas control valve that's located between the burner and the feedtank at the right side of the photo.  This photo is missing the gas line running from the tank along the far side of the boiler and connecting to the top of the gas control valve (as well as the water line from the feedtank).


I removed its outlet (lower portion of the photo) and used a 6in piece of copper tubing to connect the tank (perched in the framing below the boiler) to the burner to allow further testing.   


My tank filling has been taking place outside, not in situ. 


Once I get steam up and test the rest of the system, I'll hook up an air supply to the gas control valve system and use some soapy water to test the joints.  I suspect it's coming from the control valve stem but might be the inlet joint.


Ken
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